no safe modules for ground-mounted arrays[RE-wrenches]

Mon Jan 21 15:47:41 PST 2008

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Chris:

I put a few photos up on the web to illustrate the problems and some 
possible solutions at:

http://mpandc.com/practices/Procedures/PV_wiring/PV_wiring.html

William

At 12:27 PM 1/21/2008, you wrote:

>John, I've never seen an example of the William's raceway design that you
>speak of. Could you or anyone else out there direct me to a link on the web
>where I might see an example(picture). Thanks.
>
>
>
>Chris Schaefer
>
>Solar and Wind FX Inc.
>
>5115 South Hill Road
>
>Canandaigua(Bristol Center) New York 14424
>
>585.229.2083
>
>Cell 748.1870
>
>chris at solarandwindfx.com
>
>HYPERLINK "http://www.solarandwindfx.com/"http://www.solarandwindfx.com/
>Where Knowledge Equals Power Independence
>
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>-----Original Message-----
>From: John Raynes [mailto:john at raynes.com]
>Sent: 21 January, 2008 14:20
>To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>Subject: Re: no safe modules for ground-mounted arrays[RE-wrenches]
>
>
>In my earlier comments, as one of the "poletop escalators" in this
>
>discussion -
>
>
>
>I was simply commenting on what I imagine the inevitable outcome of this
>
>will be, once the collective "risk-averse interpretation mindset" takes
>
>over, and this mindset is allowed to follow its standard line of approach
>
>to its logical conclusion.  Happens everywhere, to virtually everything
>
>these days, solar is no different.  I don't at all think that forcing 10'
>
>poletop arrays is reasonable, I hate doing tall pole tops as it is.  But we
>
>had better be ready for this unless the best available solution at present
>
>(J-boxes) once again becomes a real choice, or unless some other viable
>
>off-the-shelf solution takes hold.
>
>
>
>I'm really impressed with William's raceway design, I'd bet that it's the
>
>first prototype of the type of end solution that will eventually appear on
>
>the market.  By generously publishing that solution on his web site, and
>
>talking it up here, he's inviting the rack manufacturers to steal his
>
>ideas.  I hope at least one of them is honest enough to sign William up, at
>
>an appropriate level of compensation, so that they can make this design
>
>available to all.  In the mean time, should we installers be expected to
>
>fab and integrate these kinds of raceways from scratch, as the only clean
>
>way out of this?  Besides, our custom raceways won't be UL listed (hey, two
>
>can play this game).
>
>
>
>We all know that until now, the "accessibility" of pole tops and ground
>
>mounts has not been a bug, but rather an intentional design feature for
>
>off-grid houses, because an accessible array is one that is more likely to
>
>be seasonally adjusted by the owner.   I wonder: if this new NEC
>
>requirement holds (as we have to assume it will), and the industry doesn't
>
>come up with good, available solutions, will the path of least resistance
>
>then be larger, fixed arrays in all cases, forget these "dangerous tiltable
>
>designs where everything is exposed"?  Sheesh.  I sure hope not.
>
>
>
>Ray, as far add-on J-boxes over MC modules, I'm not entirely visualizing
>
>how that works.  Are you then burying the MC connectors in the conduits, or
>
>are you taking the manu's MC pigtails off entirely (which some MC modules
>
>allow) and replacing them with straight runs?
>
>
>
>John Raynes
>
>RE Solar
>
>Torrey, UT
>
>
>
>
>
>At 09:58 AM 1/21/2008 -0800, you wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >Funny how things tend to escalate, isn't it? Since I tend to like trackers
>
> >over fixed mounts, and since trackers require a lot of drip loop for
>
> >flexibility, imagine the height the pole would need to be. Carramba! I'd
>
> >like to know what ever happened to warning signs on potentially hazardous
>
> >equipment, and parental oversight? Is common sense so uncommon these days
>
> >that we have to become the Safety Police?
>
> >
>
> >Laws and insurance require that swimming pools be isolated by some means
>
> >(fencing, walls, etc.) to protect very young children and drunken
>
> >neighbors, not that pools be sealed with a child-proof cover (and pools
>
> >really /are /hazardous). I see no reason at all to_ not _do something
>
> >similar with PV, and let go of this move to try and make installations
>
> >intrinsically child-proof in and of themselves.
>
> >
>
> >William's wire chaseway, and at least one racking manufacturer's similar
>
> >design look good for tidying up wiring messes for sure. But if a kid is
>
> >determined to get into something he shouldn't, he probably will find a
>
> >way, and I completely agree that the most plausible danger to anything
>
> >from using an array as a Jungle Jim is damage to the modules, not to kids.
>
> >Unless they're kid goats. ;-)
>
> >
>
> >Ray Walters wrote:
>
> >
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>Absurdity Matt? I started at a reasonable idea of 6.5 ft, (pole
>
> >>height at 10 ft depending on the rack) now we've spooked ourselves up
>
> >>to 10 ft. But if anybody watches basketball, those guys can slam dunk
>
> >>on a 10 ft goal, so I think we need to go to 12 ft........
>
> >>
>
> >>Really, we've had solar installations here in Taos, practically since
>
> >>solar modules were available, and some of the worst wiring ever
>
> >>dreamed of. No deaths that I've ever heard of (we've been trying hard
>
> >>to keep it that way too).
>
> >>
>
> >>We're going to need to be reasonable here. Keeping kids from hanging
>
> >>off high voltage DC lines is a good idea, but  when they're old
>
> >>enough to reach over 6.5 ft, they're smart enough to know better.  I
>
> >>actually think there is more chance of module damage than kid damage
>
> >>from that anyway. ( BTW, I've got a couple of wipper snappers myself
>
> >>here to do all our destructive field testing)
>
> >>
>
> >>Nobody responded to my earlier idea of field installing J boxes over
>
> >>the MC cables, either. I guess it would void the module warranty,
>
> >>unless we had pre-approval, but it would work. Bill's metal covers
>
> >>looked better than anything else I've seen, but I agree there are
>
> >>still issues with that too.
>
> >>
>
> >>ray at solarray.com
>
> >>
>
> >>On Jan 19, 2008, at 5:51 PM, Matt Tritt wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >>>
>
> >>>Holy Smokes! According to this reg, and if applied to ground  mounted
>
> >>>PV, the mounting pole would need to be about 15' above  grade. Has
>
> >>>anyone else on this list noticed the level of absurdity  possible when
>
> >>>following a "logical" train of thought?  The biggest  worries we used to
>
> >>>have concerned keeping horses and bulls away  from installations, and
>
> >>>not falling from a roof, now it's  technology proliferated to the point
>
> >>>where hazards to humans is the  worry because of the high voltages (or
>
> >>>paranoia) involved.
>
> >>>
>
> >>>If accessible PV wiring is 48 volts or less, the problem goes away.
>
> >>>Or, to blaspheme, maybe the US could join the rest of the world and
>
> >>>use something other than the NEC to govern electrical practices.
>
> >>>Please, anyone; how many of you, or anyone you know even remotely,
>
> >>>has been injured or killed by any wire on the back of an array?
>
> >>>
>
> >>>If this all goes where it seems to be headed, the cost of PV could
>
> >>>reach a point that puts it out of the reach of even more people,  and
>
> >>>the only companies able to accomplish installations will be the  ones
>
> >>>that can afford the hugely expensive insurance policies that  will
>
> >>>materialize to cover the "perceived" liabilities involved.
>
> >>>
>
> >>>Oh, for 1980!
>
> >>>
>
> >>>Matt T
>
> >>>
>
> >>>Drake Chamberlin wrote:
>
> >>>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>>The bottom of the drip loop for a utility service drop needs to be
>
> >>>>10' minimum from grade level.
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>>Drake
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>>At 04:46 PM 1/18/2008, you wrote:
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>>>Regarding taller pole mounts:
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>>>>That is an interesting take on the definition of readily accessible.
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>>>>Center point of saftey switch handles can be no higher than 6
>
> >>>>>1/2'.  This
>
> >>>>>insures that they can be easily accessed for operation.
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>>>>I can reach up to almost 8' without getting a ladder.
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>>>>I would think that the "circuits" would have to more like over 8
>
> >>>>>1/2' to be
>
> >>>>>deemed not "readily accessible".
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>>>>MPF
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>>>>-----Original Message-----
>
> >>>>>From: Ray Walters [mailto:walters at taosnet.com]
>
> >>>>>Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 3:20 PM
>
> >>>>>To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>
> >>>>>Subject: Re: no safe modules for ground-mounted arrays[RE-wrenches]
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>>>>Taller pole mounts that put the cabling above 2 m (6 1/2')  would be
>
> >>>>>cheaper than fencing.
>
> >>>>>What if a manufacturer just approved a glue on J-box attachment to
>
> >>>>>the module? That's all the J-box was on the  old J-box models.
>
> >>>>>We glue some J-boxes on, cut the cables shorter and wire nut away to
>
> >>>>>flex conduit. A single gang outdoor extension ring made of plastic
>
> >>>>>would work great.
>
> >>>>>I have some very old modules that have j-boxes that are just that.
>
> >>>>>Its actually sturdier than the old boxes were all crying about.
>
> >>>>>The proper adhesive would be the key ingredient. I believe  silicon is
>
> >>>>>compatible with the Tedlar backing on the modules,
>
> >>>>>could a module manufacturer please comment?
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>>>>The retrofit I'm talking about would work on most modules now.
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>>>>ray at solarray.com
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>>>>
>
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> >>>>>1/18/2008 7:32 PM
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> >>
>
> >>R. Walters
>
> >>Solarray.com
>
> >>NABCEP # 04170442
>
> >>
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> >>
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> >>
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