no safe modules for ground-mounted arrays[RE-wrenches]

Bob Clark bclark at solar-wind.us
Mon Jan 21 13:43:17 PST 2008


I, too, would like the link to William's raceway design.  I tried following
the link he inserted in his e-mail, but could not see any raceway design.

Bob Clark
SolarWind Energy Systems,LLC

-----Original Message-----
From: chris at solarandwindfx.com [mailto:chris at solarandwindfx.com] 
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 12:28 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: no safe modules for ground-mounted arrays[RE-wrenches]



John, I’ve never seen an example of the William's raceway design that you
speak of. Could you or anyone else out there direct me to a link on the web
where I might see an example(picture). Thanks.

 

Chris Schaefer

Solar and Wind FX Inc.

5115 South Hill Road

Canandaigua(Bristol Center) New York 14424

585.229.2083

Cell 748.1870

chris at solarandwindfx.com

HYPERLINK "http://www.solarandwindfx.com/"http://www.solarandwindfx.com/

Where Knowledge Equals Power Independence

 

 

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-----Original Message-----
From: John Raynes [mailto:john at raynes.com] 
Sent: 21 January, 2008 14:20
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: Re: no safe modules for ground-mounted arrays[RE-wrenches]

 

 

In my earlier comments, as one of the "poletop escalators" in this 

discussion -

 

I was simply commenting on what I imagine the inevitable outcome of this 

will be, once the collective "risk-averse interpretation mindset" takes 

over, and this mindset is allowed to follow its standard line of approach 

to its logical conclusion.  Happens everywhere, to virtually everything 

these days, solar is no different.  I don't at all think that forcing 10' 

poletop arrays is reasonable, I hate doing tall pole tops as it is.  But we 

had better be ready for this unless the best available solution at present 

(J-boxes) once again becomes a real choice, or unless some other viable 

off-the-shelf solution takes hold.

 

I'm really impressed with William's raceway design, I'd bet that it's the 

first prototype of the type of end solution that will eventually appear on 

the market.  By generously publishing that solution on his web site, and 

talking it up here, he's inviting the rack manufacturers to steal his 

ideas.  I hope at least one of them is honest enough to sign William up, at 

an appropriate level of compensation, so that they can make this design 

available to all.  In the mean time, should we installers be expected to 

fab and integrate these kinds of raceways from scratch, as the only clean 

way out of this?  Besides, our custom raceways won't be UL listed (hey, two 

can play this game).

 

We all know that until now, the "accessibility" of pole tops and ground 

mounts has not been a bug, but rather an intentional design feature for 

off-grid houses, because an accessible array is one that is more likely to 

be seasonally adjusted by the owner.   I wonder: if this new NEC 

requirement holds (as we have to assume it will), and the industry doesn't 

come up with good, available solutions, will the path of least resistance 

then be larger, fixed arrays in all cases, forget these "dangerous tiltable 

designs where everything is exposed"?  Sheesh.  I sure hope not.

 

Ray, as far add-on J-boxes over MC modules, I'm not entirely visualizing 

how that works.  Are you then burying the MC connectors in the conduits, or 

are you taking the manu's MC pigtails off entirely (which some MC modules 

allow) and replacing them with straight runs?

 

John Raynes

RE Solar

Torrey, UT

 

 

At 09:58 AM 1/21/2008 -0800, you wrote:

 

 

>Funny how things tend to escalate, isn't it? Since I tend to like trackers 

>over fixed mounts, and since trackers require a lot of drip loop for 

>flexibility, imagine the height the pole would need to be. Carramba! I'd 

>like to know what ever happened to warning signs on potentially hazardous 

>equipment, and parental oversight? Is common sense so uncommon these days 

>that we have to become the Safety Police?

> 

>Laws and insurance require that swimming pools be isolated by some means 

>(fencing, walls, etc.) to protect very young children and drunken 

>neighbors, not that pools be sealed with a child-proof cover (and pools 

>really /are /hazardous). I see no reason at all to_ not _do something 

>similar with PV, and let go of this move to try and make installations 

>intrinsically child-proof in and of themselves.

> 

>William's wire chaseway, and at least one racking manufacturer's similar 

>design look good for tidying up wiring messes for sure. But if a kid is 

>determined to get into something he shouldn't, he probably will find a 

>way, and I completely agree that the most plausible danger to anything 

>from using an array as a Jungle Jim is damage to the modules, not to kids. 

>Unless they're kid goats. ;-)

> 

>Ray Walters wrote:

> 

>> 

>> 

>>Absurdity Matt? I started at a reasonable idea of 6.5 ft, (pole

>>height at 10 ft depending on the rack) now we've spooked ourselves up

>>to 10 ft. But if anybody watches basketball, those guys can slam dunk

>>on a 10 ft goal, so I think we need to go to 12 ft........

>> 

>>Really, we've had solar installations here in Taos, practically since

>>solar modules were available, and some of the worst wiring ever

>>dreamed of. No deaths that I've ever heard of (we've been trying hard

>>to keep it that way too).

>> 

>>We're going to need to be reasonable here. Keeping kids from hanging

>>off high voltage DC lines is a good idea, but  when they're old

>>enough to reach over 6.5 ft, they're smart enough to know better.  I

>>actually think there is more chance of module damage than kid damage

>>from that anyway. ( BTW, I've got a couple of wipper snappers myself

>>here to do all our destructive field testing)

>> 

>>Nobody responded to my earlier idea of field installing J boxes over

>>the MC cables, either. I guess it would void the module warranty,

>>unless we had pre-approval, but it would work. Bill's metal covers

>>looked better than anything else I've seen, but I agree there are

>>still issues with that too.

>> 

>>ray at solarray.com

>> 

>>On Jan 19, 2008, at 5:51 PM, Matt Tritt wrote:

>> 

>>> 

>>>Holy Smokes! According to this reg, and if applied to ground  mounted 

>>>PV, the mounting pole would need to be about 15' above  grade. Has 

>>>anyone else on this list noticed the level of absurdity  possible when 

>>>following a "logical" train of thought?  The biggest  worries we used to 

>>>have concerned keeping horses and bulls away  from installations, and 

>>>not falling from a roof, now it's  technology proliferated to the point 

>>>where hazards to humans is the  worry because of the high voltages (or 

>>>paranoia) involved.

>>> 

>>>If accessible PV wiring is 48 volts or less, the problem goes away.

>>>Or, to blaspheme, maybe the US could join the rest of the world and

>>>use something other than the NEC to govern electrical practices.

>>>Please, anyone; how many of you, or anyone you know even remotely,

>>>has been injured or killed by any wire on the back of an array?

>>> 

>>>If this all goes where it seems to be headed, the cost of PV could

>>>reach a point that puts it out of the reach of even more people,  and 

>>>the only companies able to accomplish installations will be the  ones 

>>>that can afford the hugely expensive insurance policies that  will 

>>>materialize to cover the "perceived" liabilities involved.

>>> 

>>>Oh, for 1980!

>>> 

>>>Matt T

>>> 

>>>Drake Chamberlin wrote:

>>> 

>>>> 

>>>>The bottom of the drip loop for a utility service drop needs to be

>>>>10' minimum from grade level.

>>>> 

>>>>Drake

>>>> 

>>>>At 04:46 PM 1/18/2008, you wrote:

>>>> 

>>>>>Regarding taller pole mounts:

>>>>> 

>>>>>That is an interesting take on the definition of readily accessible.

>>>>> 

>>>>>Center point of saftey switch handles can be no higher than 6

>>>>>1/2'.  This

>>>>>insures that they can be easily accessed for operation.

>>>>> 

>>>>>I can reach up to almost 8' without getting a ladder.

>>>>> 

>>>>>I would think that the "circuits" would have to more like over 8

>>>>>1/2' to be

>>>>>deemed not "readily accessible".

>>>>> 

>>>>>MPF

>>>>> 

>>>>>-----Original Message-----

>>>>>From: Ray Walters [mailto:walters at taosnet.com]

>>>>>Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 3:20 PM

>>>>>To: RE-wrenches at topica.com

>>>>>Subject: Re: no safe modules for ground-mounted arrays[RE-wrenches]

>>>>> 

>>>>> 

>>>>> 

>>>>> 

>>>>>Taller pole mounts that put the cabling above 2 m (6 1/2')  would be

>>>>>cheaper than fencing.

>>>>>What if a manufacturer just approved a glue on J-box attachment to

>>>>>the module? That's all the J-box was on the  old J-box models.

>>>>>We glue some J-boxes on, cut the cables shorter and wire nut away to

>>>>>flex conduit. A single gang outdoor extension ring made of plastic

>>>>>would work great.

>>>>>I have some very old modules that have j-boxes that are just that.

>>>>>Its actually sturdier than the old boxes were all crying about.

>>>>>The proper adhesive would be the key ingredient. I believe  silicon is

>>>>>compatible with the Tedlar backing on the modules,

>>>>>could a module manufacturer please comment?

>>>>> 

>>>>>The retrofit I'm talking about would work on most modules now.

>>>>> 

>>>>>ray at solarray.com

>>>>> 

>>>>> 

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>> 

>>R. Walters

>>Solarray.com

>>NABCEP # 04170442

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> 

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