no safe modules for ground-mounted arrays[RE-wrenches]

Matt Tritt solarone at charter.net
Mon Jan 21 12:12:47 PST 2008 

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Nicely said, John.

"Risk-averse mindsets" are pretty much what spoils all the fun these 
days, as everyone can see in "The Dangerous Book for Boys" popularity.

Anyhow, the older version of Unisolar PVL came with a U-Apply it in The 
Field J-box, that was stuck on with an excellent mastic. The modules 
had, if you don't already know all this, a pair of pigtails that 
connected to a strip built in to the box. A very nice (but sometimes 
messy) arrangement that worked well. These even worked on the Teflon 
face of PVL's! Cool. Why can't the mod. manuf's supply this kind of 
thing now, I wonder?

Matt

John Raynes wrote:

>
> In my earlier comments, as one of the "poletop escalators" in this 
> discussion -
>
> I was simply commenting on what I imagine the inevitable outcome of 
> this will be, once the collective "risk-averse interpretation mindset" 
> takes over, and this mindset is allowed to follow its standard line of 
> approach to its logical conclusion.  Happens everywhere, to virtually 
> everything these days, solar is no different.  I don't at all think 
> that forcing 10' poletop arrays is reasonable, I hate doing tall pole 
> tops as it is.  But we had better be ready for this unless the best 
> available solution at present (J-boxes) once again becomes a real 
> choice, or unless some other viable off-the-shelf solution takes hold.
>
> I'm really impressed with William's raceway design, I'd bet that it's 
> the first prototype of the type of end solution that will eventually 
> appear on the market.  By generously publishing that solution on his 
> web site, and talking it up here, he's inviting the rack manufacturers 
> to steal his ideas.  I hope at least one of them is honest enough to 
> sign William up, at an appropriate level of compensation, so that they 
> can make this design available to all.  In the mean time, should we 
> installers be expected to fab and integrate these kinds of raceways 
> from scratch, as the only clean way out of this?  Besides, our custom 
> raceways won't be UL listed (hey, two can play this game).
>
> We all know that until now, the "accessibility" of pole tops and 
> ground mounts has not been a bug, but rather an intentional design 
> feature for off-grid houses, because an accessible array is one that 
> is more likely to be seasonally adjusted by the owner.   I wonder: if 
> this new NEC requirement holds (as we have to assume it will), and the 
> industry doesn't come up with good, available solutions, will the path 
> of least resistance then be larger, fixed arrays in all cases, forget 
> these "dangerous tiltable designs where everything is exposed"?  
> Sheesh.  I sure hope not.
>
> Ray, as far add-on J-boxes over MC modules, I'm not entirely 
> visualizing how that works.  Are you then burying the MC connectors in 
> the conduits, or are you taking the manu's MC pigtails off entirely 
> (which some MC modules allow) and replacing them with straight runs?
>
> John Raynes
> RE Solar
> Torrey, UT
>
>
> At 09:58 AM 1/21/2008 -0800, you wrote:
>
>
>> Funny how things tend to escalate, isn't it? Since I tend to like 
>> trackers over fixed mounts, and since trackers require a lot of drip 
>> loop for flexibility, imagine the height the pole would need to be. 
>> Carramba! I'd like to know what ever happened to warning signs on 
>> potentially hazardous equipment, and parental oversight? Is common 
>> sense so uncommon these days that we have to become the Safety Police?
>>
>> Laws and insurance require that swimming pools be isolated by some 
>> means (fencing, walls, etc.) to protect very young children and 
>> drunken neighbors, not that pools be sealed with a child-proof cover 
>> (and pools really /are /hazardous). I see no reason at all to_ not 
>> _do something similar with PV, and let go of this move to try and 
>> make installations intrinsically child-proof in and of themselves.
>>
>> William's wire chaseway, and at least one racking manufacturer's 
>> similar design look good for tidying up wiring messes for sure. But 
>> if a kid is determined to get into something he shouldn't, he 
>> probably will find a way, and I completely agree that the most 
>> plausible danger to anything from using an array as a Jungle Jim is 
>> damage to the modules, not to kids. Unless they're kid goats. ;-)
>>
>> Ray Walters wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Absurdity Matt? I started at a reasonable idea of 6.5 ft, (pole
>>> height at 10 ft depending on the rack) now we've spooked ourselves up
>>> to 10 ft. But if anybody watches basketball, those guys can slam dunk
>>> on a 10 ft goal, so I think we need to go to 12 ft........
>>>
>>> Really, we've had solar installations here in Taos, practically since
>>> solar modules were available, and some of the worst wiring ever
>>> dreamed of. No deaths that I've ever heard of (we've been trying hard
>>> to keep it that way too).
>>>
>>> We're going to need to be reasonable here. Keeping kids from hanging
>>> off high voltage DC lines is a good idea, but  when they're old
>>> enough to reach over 6.5 ft, they're smart enough to know better.  I
>>> actually think there is more chance of module damage than kid damage
>>> from that anyway. ( BTW, I've got a couple of wipper snappers myself
>>> here to do all our destructive field testing)
>>>
>>> Nobody responded to my earlier idea of field installing J boxes over
>>> the MC cables, either. I guess it would void the module warranty,
>>> unless we had pre-approval, but it would work. Bill's metal covers
>>> looked better than anything else I've seen, but I agree there are
>>> still issues with that too.
>>>
>>> ray at solarray.com
>>>
>>> On Jan 19, 2008, at 5:51 PM, Matt Tritt wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Holy Smokes! According to this reg, and if applied to ground  
>>>> mounted PV, the mounting pole would need to be about 15' above  
>>>> grade. Has anyone else on this list noticed the level of absurdity  
>>>> possible when following a "logical" train of thought?  The biggest  
>>>> worries we used to have concerned keeping horses and bulls away  
>>>> from installations, and not falling from a roof, now it's  
>>>> technology proliferated to the point where hazards to humans is 
>>>> the  worry because of the high voltages (or paranoia) involved.
>>>>
>>>> If accessible PV wiring is 48 volts or less, the problem goes away.
>>>> Or, to blaspheme, maybe the US could join the rest of the world and
>>>> use something other than the NEC to govern electrical practices.
>>>> Please, anyone; how many of you, or anyone you know even remotely,
>>>> has been injured or killed by any wire on the back of an array?
>>>>
>>>> If this all goes where it seems to be headed, the cost of PV could
>>>> reach a point that puts it out of the reach of even more people,  
>>>> and the only companies able to accomplish installations will be 
>>>> the  ones that can afford the hugely expensive insurance policies 
>>>> that  will materialize to cover the "perceived" liabilities involved.
>>>>
>>>> Oh, for 1980!
>>>>
>>>> Matt T
>>>>
>>>> Drake Chamberlin wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The bottom of the drip loop for a utility service drop needs to be
>>>>> 10' minimum from grade level.
>>>>>
>>>>> Drake
>>>>>
>>>>> At 04:46 PM 1/18/2008, you wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Regarding taller pole mounts:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is an interesting take on the definition of readily accessible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Center point of saftey switch handles can be no higher than 6
>>>>>> 1/2'.  This
>>>>>> insures that they can be easily accessed for operation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can reach up to almost 8' without getting a ladder.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would think that the "circuits" would have to more like over 8
>>>>>> 1/2' to be
>>>>>> deemed not "readily accessible".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> MPF
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Ray Walters [mailto:walters at taosnet.com]
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 3:20 PM
>>>>>> To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>>>>>> Subject: Re: no safe modules for ground-mounted arrays[RE-wrenches]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Taller pole mounts that put the cabling above 2 m (6 1/2')  would be
>>>>>> cheaper than fencing.
>>>>>> What if a manufacturer just approved a glue on J-box attachment to
>>>>>> the module? That's all the J-box was on the  old J-box models.
>>>>>> We glue some J-boxes on, cut the cables shorter and wire nut away to
>>>>>> flex conduit. A single gang outdoor extension ring made of plastic
>>>>>> would work great.
>>>>>> I have some very old modules that have j-boxes that are just that.
>>>>>> Its actually sturdier than the old boxes were all crying about.
>>>>>> The proper adhesive would be the key ingredient. I believe  
>>>>>> silicon is
>>>>>> compatible with the Tedlar backing on the modules,
>>>>>> could a module manufacturer please comment?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The retrofit I'm talking about would work on most modules now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ray at solarray.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>> R. Walters
>>> Solarray.com
>>> NABCEP # 04170442
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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