Hot water at summer camp [RE-wrenches]

Travis Creswell tcreswell at ozarkenergyservices.com
Mon Mar 19 07:49:34 PDT 2007


I'm firmly in the "tankless water heaters are more trouble then they are
worth" camp.  They are expensive, full of quirks and you'll be called on to
service them as the local plumbers probably won't touch them.  If you are
really "in business to be business" it is my opinion that you must stay away
from tankless waters heaters.  Darryl experiences are pretty common and he's
obviously a sharp guy who knows hot to install them properly.

Bill's Loesch has obviously done his homework.  Be sure to follow his advice
to the letter if you do elect to use tankless units.  Even then you're still
playing with fire and will likely have dissatisfied customers.  What you
have in your favor is that your water supply temps probably average at least
20f higher then Darryl's applications do.  This will make a tremendous
difference in the satisfaction level with tankless water heaters.

Back to your campers...Do they even really need back up?  We've got an ICS
on off grid USFS campground. The USFS engineers wisely elected to install a
mix valve and adjust it such that limits the temp to just barely warm
enough.  Most of the time this works just fine and rarely is their not
enough tepid water for the campers.

Best,
Travis Creswell
Ozark Energy Services



-----Original Message-----
From: Darryl Thayer [mailto:daryl_solar at yahoo.com] 
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 9:31 AM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: Re: Hot water at summer camp [RE-wrenches]


Hello
I agree, except for the back-up heater.  I have
installed up to 70A-240 volt instant heaters with
unhappy customers.  I have installed even the TAGAI
which is rated for solar with unhappy customers
because of the tricks that must be played to get a
shower of uniform temperature.  If the goal is
reasonable showers then use a tank type back up
heater.
Darryl 
--- Bill Loesch <solar1online at charter.net> wrote:

> 
> Hi Holt,
> 
> Good thinking! If the hot water load is after the
> sun can work all day, the
> ICS heaters are probably a good bet for simplicity
> (and relatively low
> cost). You have checked the structure for your dual
> ICS installation?
> 
> You need to choose a backup heater that is
> compatiable with preheated water
> (not all are). As a minimum, a temperature sensor
> for _incoming_ water would
> be required. Be aware of the very large electrical
> demands of an electric
> tankless capable of providing heated water for a
> single shower. Compute the
> temperature rise with the _lowest_ water temperature
> that will reach the
> heater, probably in winter, not the _average_ water
> temperature that so many
> of the clueless tankless marketing folks promote.
> Add dual drain valves
> inboard of the dual shutoff valves so that manual
> descaling is a relatively
> simple operation if/when the tankless heat exchanger
> becomes blocked.
> 
> Finally, for both the benefit of the ICS and the
> tankless (and any other
> appliance in the hot water distribution) if you have
> hard water (and
> especially very hard water) you _NEED_ a water
> softener (preferably
> installed only on the hot water side) for minimal
> maintenance.
> 
> Good luck,
> 
> Bill Loesch
> Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
> 314 631 1094
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Holt Kelly" <holtek at sbcglobal.net>
> To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
> Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 10:42 AM
> Subject: Hot water at summer camp [RE-wrenches]
> 
> 
> >
> > I have been asked to design a hot water system at
> a summer camp. 21
> > seperate sytems. Hot water for showers is used
> from 4:30pm to 5:30pm(14
> > showers)per system, very little use the rest of
> the day. Solar resource
> > is excellent to fair. My initial thoughts were 2-
> 40gal passive
> > collectors with an electric tankless backup (need
> to keep maintenance to
> > a minimum). Or possibly Helio-flo with single
> tank. Any thoughts out
> > there?
> >
> > Holt E. Kelly
> > Holtek Fireplace & Solar Products
> > Waco, TX.
> >

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