Out in the outback with OutBack [RE-wrenches]

Mon Apr 16 13:09:47 PDT 2007

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Hi folks,

A note on this string - there are auto start DC generators on the  
market which could be useful with grid tied battery based systems  
which need extended run time. A supplier of this type of generator  
(but clearly NOT the only supplier) is Alpha Technologies  
(www.alpha.com). One generator I particularly like is a Honda based  
AlphaGen which produces a steady 56 Vdc. It is not intended to be a  
multi-stage charger, the PV will take care of that. They are quiet,  
and would not need to interface with the FX inverters single AC input.

Regards,

Ezra Auerbach

On 16-Apr-07, at 8:41 AM, Darryl Thayer wrote:

>
> My two cents worth:
> Even with the battery based systems, We are talking of
> more than one system.
>
> The grid tied customer wants to have away when the
> grid goes down he can back up with generator after the
> batterys are depleted. They would like to recharge the
> batteries, and cycle between batteries and generator.
> ( I have used the cluge. to resonable success, (step
> down transformer, rectifier, MX60)
>
> There is also the standalone customer who wants the
> MX60 to sense the battery state of charge and control
> the generator to battery charge and take up load.
> This and above have the idea that if the FX could
> support the generator if the load exceeds a value.
>
> Lastly there is "poor grid" customer who wants to
> support a grid genny powered with solar and batteries
> in all levels of support, from fractions to major
> loads.
>
> Thanks Darryl
>
> --- Eric Youngren <eric at rainshadowinc.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> I have a theory.  I tried to address it in an
>> earlier post about GT w/ BB
>> systems but nobody bit.   Here again I'll throw it
>> out there for those who
>> understand these things better.
>>
>> I think the problem is an inherent difference in
>> inverter technologies and
>> function.
>>
>> In my SEI PV2 class in Carbondale a few years back,
>> John Berdner taught
>> inverters, and he broke it down like this:
>>
>> There are two basic types of inverters,  voltage
>> source and current source.
>>
>> Voltage source are battery based, and produce their
>> own voltage, waveform
>> frequency and current flow.
>>
>> Current source inverters are grid-tied, and generate
>> current flow only.
>> They need an AC voltage, waveform and frequency to
>> which they can
>> synchronize and "push back" current against.
>>
>> I may be oversimplifying this, but is the inherent
>> problem with high
>> efficiency grid tie and battery backup simply that
>> these are two very
>> different tasks to ask of a single inverter?  Maybe
>> the answer is a "hybrid"
>> dual-purpose inverter system utilizing both
>> technologies in a single box?
>>
>> Eric
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services
>> [mailto:toddcory at finestplanet.com]
>> Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 6:18 AM
>> To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>> Subject: Re: Out in the outback with OutBack
>> [RE-wrenches]
>>
>>
>> The grid tied version of the FX is very fussy about
>> what it will kind of
>> AC input power quality it will accept. Yes, you
>> could possibly set up a
>> manual transfer switch on the bidirectional inverter
>> AC input with an AC
>> inverter generator. You could use an external
>> transfer switch, but the
>> customer would still have to go to the mate and tell
>> the FX the input is
>> now "gen" rather than "grid". This is mighty
>> complicated for your
>> average customer to manage, plus I have not seen
>> large wattage inverter
>> generators. The SW used to do that all
>> automatically... so rather than
>> just have the inverter automatically start the genny
>> and go, you have to
>> change the transfer switch position, change the
>> input configuration in
>> the mate and then start the genny.... and when the
>> grid comes back up
>> you need to reverse everything back.
>>
>> That is why the other "work around kludge" for what
>> most see as an
>> obvious design fault in the FX is to use a 2:1 step
>> down transformer on
>> the genny output (_any_ genny will work for this),
>> rectify to DC and
>> dump that as another input to the MX60. Yes, this is
>> clunky and home
>> brew (which I try to avoid now days) but workable,
>> and presents nothing
>> to do on the customers part but start the generator
>> (or let the mate do
>> it) when the grid is down and the batteries are low.
>>
>> What we really need is a battery based inverter that
>> can seamlessly and
>> automatically be able to accept two AC sources...
>> one it can sell to and
>> one it cannot. Whenever this comes up on the wrench
>> list Christopher
>> either is silent or when pressed becomes defensive
>> saying things like
>> "the inverter was never designed to do this anyway
>> so they do not
>> consider it a defect".
>>
>> Whether it was or was not designed to do this is not
>> the point. A
>> battery based system is chosen for its back up
>> capabilities, so IMO it
>> /should/ have been designed to accept several
>> different AC sources. The
>> fact that two AC inputs are listed in the mate menu
>> menu system leads me
>> to believe this was part of the original design of
>> the inverter, but
>> because of the tight UL1741 window they could never
>> get the inverter to
>> work on generator power.
>>
>> I would like them to
>> 1) admit this is an issue and
>> 2) serve the customers that want this feature to
>> work.
>> At this point (as far as I know) they are doing
>> neither, so this is
>> reminiscent of the problems with the SW that Xantrex
>> never addressed. I
>> would hate to see us wrenches move to yet another
>> inverter manufacturer
>> to get what we need, but at this point that looks
>> like the only hope as
>> Outback appears to not be interested in addressing
>> this.
>>
>> I hear Xantrex is coming out with a new battery
>> based grid tie able
>> inverter. As much as I hate Xantrex, it would be
>> hard to not consider
>> buying from a company that provided the gear with
>> the features we need.
>> As much as I like Outback products and use them on
>> most all of the
>> systems I do, with boB and Robin gone and these
>> issues still going
>> unaddressed, and the issues with tech support...
>> these days are sadly
>> looking more and more like the days after Xantrex
>> took over Trace
>> Engineering.
>>
>> I am not out to "dis" Outback here, but would love
>> some straight talk
>> and resolution to this ongoing issue.
>>
>> Todd
>>
>>
>> Marco Mangelsdorf wrote:
>>
>>> What the latest situation with the grid-tie
>> versions of the OutBack
>>> inverters?  Have our friends Chris F. et al.
>> figured out how to have their
>>> units be both grid compatible and sell back power
>> and accept a back-up
>> power
>>> source from a generator?  Or is it either/or still?
>>>
>>> thanks,
>>> marco
>>>
>>> Marco Mangelsdorf, Ph.D., President
>>> Electrical Contractor License C-26351
>>> 69 Railroad Avenue, A-7
>>> Hilo, Hawai'i 96720
>>> (808) 969-3281, 934-7462 facsimile
>>> www.provisiontechnologies.com
>> <http://www.provisiontechnologies.com/>
>>>
>>
>>
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