Out in the outback with OutBack [RE-wrenches]

Darryl Thayer daryl_solar at yahoo.com
Mon Apr 16 08:41:00 PDT 2007 

My two cents worth:  
Even with the battery based systems, We are talking of
more than one system.  

The grid tied customer wants to have away when the
grid goes down he can back up with generator after the
batterys are depleted. They would like to recharge the
batteries, and cycle between batteries and generator. 
( I have used the cluge. to resonable success, (step
down transformer, rectifier, MX60)

There is also the standalone customer who wants the
MX60 to sense the battery state of charge and control
the generator to battery charge and take up load. 
This and above have the idea that if the FX could
support the generator if the load exceeds a value.  

Lastly there is "poor grid" customer who wants to
support a grid genny powered with solar and batteries 
in all levels of support, from fractions to major
loads.

Thanks Darryl

--- Eric Youngren <eric at rainshadowinc.com> wrote:

> 
> I have a theory.  I tried to address it in an
> earlier post about GT w/ BB
> systems but nobody bit.   Here again I'll throw it
> out there for those who
> understand these things better.
> 
> I think the problem is an inherent difference in
> inverter technologies and
> function.
> 
> In my SEI PV2 class in Carbondale a few years back,
> John Berdner taught
> inverters, and he broke it down like this:
> 
> There are two basic types of inverters,  voltage
> source and current source.
> 
> Voltage source are battery based, and produce their
> own voltage, waveform
> frequency and current flow.
> 
> Current source inverters are grid-tied, and generate
> current flow only.
> They need an AC voltage, waveform and frequency to
> which they can
> synchronize and "push back" current against.   
> 
> I may be oversimplifying this, but is the inherent
> problem with high
> efficiency grid tie and battery backup simply that
> these are two very
> different tasks to ask of a single inverter?  Maybe
> the answer is a "hybrid"
> dual-purpose inverter system utilizing both
> technologies in a single box?
> 
> Eric
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Todd Cory, Mt. Shasta Energy Services
> [mailto:toddcory at finestplanet.com] 
> Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 6:18 AM
> To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
> Subject: Re: Out in the outback with OutBack
> [RE-wrenches]
> 
> 
> The grid tied version of the FX is very fussy about
> what it will kind of 
> AC input power quality it will accept. Yes, you
> could possibly set up a 
> manual transfer switch on the bidirectional inverter
> AC input with an AC 
> inverter generator. You could use an external
> transfer switch, but the 
> customer would still have to go to the mate and tell
> the FX the input is 
> now "gen" rather than "grid". This is mighty
> complicated for your 
> average customer to manage, plus I have not seen
> large wattage inverter 
> generators. The SW used to do that all
> automatically... so rather than 
> just have the inverter automatically start the genny
> and go, you have to 
> change the transfer switch position, change the
> input configuration in 
> the mate and then start the genny.... and when the
> grid comes back up 
> you need to reverse everything back.
> 
> That is why the other "work around kludge" for what
> most see as an 
> obvious design fault in the FX is to use a 2:1 step
> down transformer on 
> the genny output (_any_ genny will work for this),
> rectify to DC and 
> dump that as another input to the MX60. Yes, this is
> clunky and home 
> brew (which I try to avoid now days) but workable,
> and presents nothing 
> to do on the customers part but start the generator
> (or let the mate do 
> it) when the grid is down and the batteries are low.
> 
> What we really need is a battery based inverter that
> can seamlessly and 
> automatically be able to accept two AC sources...
> one it can sell to and 
> one it cannot. Whenever this comes up on the wrench
> list Christopher 
> either is silent or when pressed becomes defensive
> saying things like 
> "the inverter was never designed to do this anyway
> so they do not 
> consider it a defect".
> 
> Whether it was or was not designed to do this is not
> the point. A 
> battery based system is chosen for its back up
> capabilities, so IMO it 
> /should/ have been designed to accept several
> different AC sources. The 
> fact that two AC inputs are listed in the mate menu
> menu system leads me 
> to believe this was part of the original design of
> the inverter, but 
> because of the tight UL1741 window they could never
> get the inverter to 
> work on generator power.
> 
> I would like them to
> 1) admit this is an issue and
> 2) serve the customers that want this feature to
> work.
> At this point (as far as I know) they are doing
> neither, so this is 
> reminiscent of the problems with the SW that Xantrex
> never addressed. I 
> would hate to see us wrenches move to yet another
> inverter manufacturer 
> to get what we need, but at this point that looks
> like the only hope as 
> Outback appears to not be interested in addressing
> this.
> 
> I hear Xantrex is coming out with a new battery
> based grid tie able 
> inverter. As much as I hate Xantrex, it would be
> hard to not consider 
> buying from a company that provided the gear with
> the features we need. 
> As much as I like Outback products and use them on
> most all of the 
> systems I do, with boB and Robin gone and these
> issues still going 
> unaddressed, and the issues with tech support...
> these days are sadly 
> looking more and more like the days after Xantrex
> took over Trace 
> Engineering.
> 
> I am not out to "dis" Outback here, but would love
> some straight talk 
> and resolution to this ongoing issue.
> 
> Todd
> 
> 
> Marco Mangelsdorf wrote:
> 
> >What the latest situation with the grid-tie
> versions of the OutBack
> >inverters?  Have our friends Chris F. et al.
> figured out how to have their
> >units be both grid compatible and sell back power
> and accept a back-up
> power
> >source from a generator?  Or is it either/or still?
> > 
> >thanks,
> >marco
> > 
> >Marco Mangelsdorf, Ph.D., President
> >Electrical Contractor License C-26351
> >69 Railroad Avenue, A-7
> >Hilo, Hawai'i 96720
> >(808) 969-3281, 934-7462 facsimile
> >www.provisiontechnologies.com
> <http://www.provisiontechnologies.com/> 
> >
> 
> 
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