Hot water at summer camp [RE-wrenches]

Wed Mar 21 05:26:23 PDT 2007

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Hi All,
I strongly recommend the SunEarth Copper Heart versus the Progressive Tube 
(TCT) PT-40. The TCT PT-40 uses a .030 copper sheet that is welded to form a 
tube. We have had lots of problems with this leaking in agressive water. The 
Copper Heart  uses extruded .058 DWV copper pipe--almost twice as thick. I 
suggest a Rheem or Rudd 80 or 120 gallon wrap around heat exchange tank if 
the water is agressive(low ph., iron oxides, CO2 or O2, etc.. with a 
SunEarth or AET Drainback or pressurized glycol system.
Gator Tom
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ken Schaal" <ken at commonwealthsolar.com>
To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 8:41 PM
Subject: Re: Hot water at summer camp [RE-wrenches]


>
> Holt
>
> " as much water as hot as possible" sounds like an invitation to a 
> scalding lawsuit to me.There is a reason those conventional tanks have all 
> those warning labels on them.
>
> To get good answers, you need to ask the right questions.
> I haven't gotten answers to what I would consider the right questions.Can 
> the camp director not answer these?
>
> Ken
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Holt Kelly" <holtek at sbcglobal.net>
> To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 10:34 AM
> Subject: RE: Hot water at summer camp [RE-wrenches]
>
>
>>
>> Ken,
>> Greatly appreciate the input.
>> In talking to camp director their idea is to get as much water as hot as
>> poosible. Their electric kwh rate is based on peak demand, so tankless
>> backup is not the way to go. On a scale of 1 to 5(hardest) water
>> hardness was rated a 4. Our thinking now is to go with one of two
>> systems: 1) TCT's PT40 or PT50 with a Marathon 85 conventional tank for
>> backup. Simple install, minimum maintenance, increased capacity.
>> Freezing issue is the only drawback. 2) Schuco Slimline 2 System. Pretty
>> much bullet proof, but very pricey. Would need to train camp staff to
>> monitor properly. Any thoughts out there?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Ken Schaal wrote:
>>>
>>> Holt
>>> Maybe we should back up a bit and ask a few questions.
>>> 1-- You said summer camp--June July and Aug? In Texas? Do they even want
>>> hot
>>> water of 120+ ?
>>> Or will it be more like 90-115?
>>>
>>> 2-- Showers are for 1 hr. -- How many shower heads? flow rate? water
>>> pressure issues? length of shower? cold water temp?
>>> If we assume 14 kids and two showers at 2gpm ea. for 5min ea, then we
>>> have a
>>> total flow rate of 4gpm and a total on time of 35 min. with a 2 min
>>> break
>>> between showers, for a total draw in less than 50 min of 140 gal of
>>> shower
>>> temp water.
>>>
>>> 3-- How close are the cabins? You said the solar resource was excellent
>>> to
>>> fair, so it sounds like some are shaded. If the cabins are grouped,
>>> maybe
>>> one system could serve multiple cabins?
>>>
>>> Depending on you answers, I'll suggest an appropriate system.
>>>
>>> Ken Schaal
>>> CommonWealth Solar,LLC
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Darryl Thayer" <daryl_solar at yahoo.com>
>>> To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
>>> Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 12:36 PM
>>> Subject: RE: Hot water at summer camp [RE-wrenches]
>>>
>>>
>>> >
>>> > Don"t underestimate the tremendous power draw of these
>>> > heaters.  If the campers run out of hot water and they
>>> > start using the 70 amps per leg per cabin this will
>>> > wipe you out fast.
>>> >
>>> > The problems I have had and even in my own house has
>>> > been the temperature changes as you try to shower.
>>> > When the flow rate is steady only one shower and the
>>> > solar is not to hot, the unit will turn on, on medium
>>> > fire, and the user actually adjusts the temperature by
>>> > flow rate.  If the solar is to hot the unit will hunt
>>> > on its own accord with the high limit shutting it off
>>> > and the temp changing.  Now if you add a second
>>> > shower, it comes on and now the temp drops, then the
>>> > first shower adjusts either the flow or the mix (same
>>> > thing) the second shower changes temp and they adjust
>>> > the first then changes temp and they adjust AAAhhhh!
>>> >
>>> > Now I explain this to people who have solar and
>>> > instant water heaters, and that I will not guarantee
>>> > satisfaction, and I still get customers saying it is
>>> > my problem when they are unhappy, and I need to fix
>>> > that.
>>> >
>>> > When people get experience they understand how to
>>> > adjust and do not have two showers on at once and get
>>> > by OK.
>>> >
>>> > Mixing valves will do this for you automatically, but
>>> > they usually fall out of the range of acceptable temp
>>> > range.
>>> > --- Holt Kelly <holtek at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >>
>>> >> Darryl,
>>> >> Could you eleaborate a bit on why the customers were
>>> >> "unhappy" and on
>>> >> the "tricks needed" for uniform temps? The only
>>> >> complaint that I have
>>> >> gotten on electric tankless (besides spinning the
>>> >> meter at 1000rpm)is
>>> >> the loud clicks of the relays during start-up (Eemax
>>> >> brand). Thanks for
>>> >> your input.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Darryl Thayer wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Hello
>>> >> > I agree, except for the back-up heater.  I have
>>> >> > installed up to 70A-240 volt instant heaters with
>>> >> > unhappy customers.  I have installed even the
>>> >> TAGAI
>>> >> > which is rated for solar with unhappy customers
>>> >> > because of the tricks that must be played to get a
>>> >> > shower of uniform temperature.  If the goal is
>>> >> > reasonable showers then use a tank type back up
>>> >> > heater.
>>> >> > Darryl
>>>  I have been asked to design a hot water system
>>> >> at
>>> >> > > a summer camp. 21
>>> >> > > > seperate sytems. Hot water for showers is used
>>> >> > > from 4:30pm to 5:30pm(14
>>> >> > > > showers)per system, very little use the rest
>>> >> of
>>> >> > > the day. Solar resource
>>> >> > > > is excellent to fair. My initial thoughts were
>>> >> 2-
>>> >> > > 40gal passive
>>> >> > > > collectors with an electric tankless backup
>>> >> (need
>>> >> > > to keep maintenance to
>>> >> > > > a minimum). Or possibly Helio-flo with single
>>> >> > > tank. Any thoughts out
>>> >> > > > there?
>>> >> > > >
>>> >> > > > Holt E. Kelly
>>> >> > > > Holtek Fireplace & Solar Products
>>> >> > > > Waco, TX.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Holt E. Kelly
>> Holtek Fireplace & Solar Products
>> Waco, TX.
>>
>>
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