Genny starter battery intrigue [RE-wrenches]
Geoff Greenfield
Geoff at Third-Sun.Com
Tue May 3 10:36:35 PDT 2005
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Mystery solved...
(after replacing the fuse in my fluke I can now use the amp function (duh!)
and figured it all out.)
Thanks for all the good suggestions. Covered the panel - it had no back
current.
The land line AC charger had a .93 ma draw
The culprit was the genny's automatic start circuit... heard relay clicks
and found a 72.7 ma draw when in "auto" mode (required for the 2 wire remote
start) Vs 7.6 ma when in "off" mode. I was about to test it in "manual
start" mode and realized that I would blow another amp fuse as the engine
turned over....
So - I guess my options to present the customer are:
1- Larger panel and controller to balance out the 24/7 x 72.7 MA load (and
guess about cloudy weather days off autonomy)
2- Hook up to shore power and live with the load
3- Other options? reconfigure the relay for active on? Offboard genny
controller? Probably gonna go with #2 as I don't wanna mess with the
genny's automation electronics... at least while under warranty.
Lesson - never assume that there isn't a parasitic load! Thanks for the
help and carry spare meter fuses!
For a brighter energy future,
Geoff Greenfield
NABCEP Certified Energy Practitioner
THIRD SUN SOLAR & WIND POWER Ltd.
340 West State Street
Athens, OH 45701
www.third-sun.com
(740) 597-3111
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 14:10:47 -0400
From: "Geoff Greenfield" <geoff at frognet.net>
Subject: Genny starter battery intrigue
I have a customer who's rarely used backup genny can't keep it's battery
alive. It is a northstar cheapo from northern tool and it is fine for his
needs (so far) except for when his battery self-discharges.
It came set up with a built in AC trickle-charger, complete with it's own
plug and cord. The customer also bought a little el cheapo "battery
maintainer" pv panel that came with a cig lighter plug... meant to go on the
dashboard. It is an amorphous panel, about 16" x 4", and I have no idea if
it has any self regulation or diode...
so- this thing is hooked up to the batt... last I looked the batt terminals
read 13.5 on a sunny day and now the batts dead. I am going over to
troubleshoot for him... I guess I'll use my fluke to check for a diode - do
you listers think nighttime discharge is the problem? Maybe there was a
built in diode in the car lighter he clipped off to hardwire this in? How
would I test for nightime discharge.... isolate the batt and the pv and
monitor voltage drop over time? I'm assuming the amperage is too small to
be picked up with my clamp on.
Or might there be some other drain to suss out... I will look for
continuity - the starter should be out of the system by the relay right?
Our back up plan is to plug the shorepower trickle charger in (we did send
an ac light/plug circuit to the genny shed) but I would like to avoid
another phantom load - although this system can take it)
For a brighter energy future,
Geoff Greenfield
NABCEP Certified Energy Practitioner
THIRD SUN SOLAR & WIND POWER Ltd.
340 West State Street
Athens, OH 45701
www.third-sun.com
(740) 597-3111
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 11:43:09 -0700
From: David Katz <david at aeesolar.com>
Subject: Re: Genny starter battery intrigue [RE-wrenches]
Hi Geoff,
Use a multimeter with a mA scale. Put it in series with the module and
lay the module face down to measure the discharge current. You should
probably measure the charging current too.
Next, disconnect one of the battery cables and measure the same way to
the generator when it is off to see if there is any draw there.
Finally, put a load on the battery and see if the voltage drops really
low. Maybe there is a dead cell in the battery that floats ok, but drops
2 volts with a load.
Cheers,
David
David Katz
President, AEE Solar
formerly Alternative Energy Engineering
1155 Redway Drive - Box 339
Redway, CA 95560 USA
(707) 825-1200
(707) 825-1202
email: david at aeesolar.com
web: www.aeesolar.com
Geoff Greenfield wrote:
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>
>I have a customer who's rarely used backup genny can't keep it's battery
>alive. It is a northstar cheapo from northern tool and it is fine for his
>needs (so far) except for when his battery self-discharges.
>
>It came set up with a built in AC trickle-charger, complete with it's own
>plug and cord. The customer also bought a little el cheapo "battery
>maintainer" pv panel that came with a cig lighter plug... meant to go on
the
>dashboard. It is an amorphous panel, about 16" x 4", and I have no idea if
>it has any self regulation or diode...
>
>so- this thing is hooked up to the batt... last I looked the batt terminals
>read 13.5 on a sunny day and now the batts dead. I am going over to
>troubleshoot for him... I guess I'll use my fluke to check for a diode - do
>you listers think nighttime discharge is the problem? Maybe there was a
>built in diode in the car lighter he clipped off to hardwire this in? How
>would I test for nightime discharge.... isolate the batt and the pv and
>monitor voltage drop over time? I'm assuming the amperage is too small to
>be picked up with my clamp on.
>
>Or might there be some other drain to suss out... I will look for
>continuity - the starter should be out of the system by the relay right?
>
>Our back up plan is to plug the shorepower trickle charger in (we did send
>an ac light/plug circuit to the genny shed) but I would like to avoid
>another phantom load - although this system can take it)
>
>For a brighter energy future,
>
>Geoff Greenfield
>NABCEP Certified Energy Practitioner
>
>THIRD SUN SOLAR & WIND POWER Ltd.
>340 West State Street
>Athens, OH 45701
>
>www.third-sun.com
>(740) 597-3111
>
>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 12:38:20 -0700
From: "Ron Stauffer" <rstauffer at rocketweb.net>
Subject: Re: Genny starter battery intrigue [RE-wrenches]
We have measured everything from 0 to 140 milliamps draw from a genny
battery while it is standby. We have used el cheapo 1.5w "battery
maintainers" on Dynagen engine control (14ma draw standby)and they have
worked well. But we do not clip the end off as there is a fuse and diode in
the end of the brand we use.
Generac type generator standby controls will use 140 ma and takes a 8-10w
panel with controller to keep generator battery charged. We do have a
couple customers with these that use an AC trickle charger off of the "shore
power" and these work well outside the phantom load issue. I do have one
customer that has no generator battery charging source but his solar system
is way too small and the generator runs a couple hours every day. The
generator's built in charger keeps it topped off.
The best thing to do is measure the idle draw with an inline meter and
charge the generator battery separate with a small solar panel. Anything
requiring more than 1.5w, use a controller to regulate overcharging.
Ron Stauffer
www.timeforsolar.com
Montrose CO
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I have a customer who's rarely used backup genny can't keep it's battery
alive. It is a northstar cheapo from northern tool and it is fine for his
needs (so far) except for when his battery self-discharges.
It came set up with a built in AC trickle-charger, complete with it's own
plug and cord. The customer also bought a little el cheapo "battery
maintainer" pv panel that came with a cig lighter plug... meant to go on the
dashboard. It is an amorphous panel, about 16" x 4", and I have no idea if
it has any self regulation or diode...
so- this thing is hooked up to the batt... last I looked the batt terminals
read 13.5 on a sunny day and now the batts dead. I am going over to
troubleshoot for him... I guess I'll use my fluke to check for a diode - do
you listers think nighttime discharge is the problem? Maybe there was a
built in diode in the car lighter he clipped off to hardwire this in? How
would I test for nightime discharge.... isolate the batt and the pv and
monitor voltage drop over time? I'm assuming the amperage is too small to
be picked up with my clamp on.
Or might there be some other drain to suss out... I will look for
continuity - the starter should be out of the system by the relay right?
Our back up plan is to plug the shorepower trickle charger in (we did send
an ac light/plug circuit to the genny shed) but I would like to avoid
another phantom load - although this system can take it)
For a brighter energy future,
Geoff Greenfield
NABCEP Certified Energy Practitioner
THIRD SUN SOLAR & WIND POWER Ltd.
340 West State Street
Athens, OH 45701
www.third-sun.com
(740) 597-3111
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 12:05:07 -0700
From: "Dean T. Newberry" <deant at dcn.org>
Subject: Fresnel Lens
Hello y'All,
Has anyone seen a fresnel lens overlay to help with a less than optimal
array slope??
This would not be a stretched lens or concentrator lens as described in
NASA literature, just a simple method to reorient the incident light on
a module.
Thanks in advance,
cul deant
--
Dean T. Newberry
http://www.TalbottSolar.com
Email: deant at dcn.org
Cell: 530 867-2392
Fax: 530-758-8187
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 01:23:54 +0000
From: <bbassett at rockisland.com>
Subject: Module reflectivity
I have a customer who is concerned about reflectivity from solar modules
for aesthetic reasons. Has anyone done any comparisons between modules
recently?
Brad
Brad Bassett
AEE Solar (Olympia WA office)
------------------------------
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