Gridtek 10 islanding with outback-knuckleheaded Ohio [RE-wrenches]

Fri Apr 29 06:55:48 PDT 2005

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Thanks for the suggestions Todd-

All logical with PV - however, this is a wind project, so not only are we
not on any 24 hour cycle, we REALLY are more seasonal (hmmmm how to
efficiently store winter wind power and use it year round... sounds like net
metering is a perfect solution...).  Hydrogen anyone?  (-:  someday maybe...

Knuckleheaded state? We are just a bunch of hard workin god fearin 'mericans
willin to vote the way our pastor tells us...  wanna know why OH went bush
in the national election?  cause divisive and VERY smart machiavellian GOP
strategists got the nonvoting lower-middle class and even lower class folks
to vote against their interests with a homophobic "defense of marriage" red
herring voter referendum...  I moved here from Orygun and folks ask why...
but I am not really in Ohio... Athens county was the one county that voted
no on the referendum and resoundingly against bush and the war... and our
topography is much more like West Virginia.. and as a college town we have a
great arts and music scene... rant rant brag brag... sorry.

This is not politics on the list, this is a diplomatic defense of an
accusation of knuckle-headed-ness....

Actually - we have a pretty decent state wide net metering law for investor
owned utilities... this guy is served by a rural electric co-op and with
them it is case by case... mostly hard to deal with... after the safety
issues, negotiating the terms comes up against the board needing to serve
"the best interest of their membership"... (believe me we have made the
appropriate arguments).  Grid interactive with batteries is our typical
solution.

For a brighter energy future,

Geoff Greenfield
NABCEP Certified Energy Practitioner

THIRD SUN SOLAR & WIND POWER Ltd.
340 West State Street
Athens, OH 45701

www.third-sun.com
(740) 597-3111

-----Original Message-----
From: RE-wrenches at topica.com [mailto:RE-wrenches at topica.com]
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 7:10 AM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: Digest for RE-wrenches at topica.com, issue 1764

-- Topica Digest --

	Re: Gridtek 10 islanding with outback?
	By toddcory at finestplanet.com

	RE: Re: Gridtek 10 islanding with outback?
	By geoff at third-sun.com

------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 05:13:04 -0700
From: Todd Cory <toddcory at finestplanet.com>
Subject: Re: Gridtek 10 islanding with outback? [RE-wrenches]

The homeowners could load shift heavy electrical use to daytime use with
simple
mechanical timers. If they heat their water with electricity, that should be
done
during the sunniest part of the day, and perhaps the element sized smaller
so it
runs longer at a lower wattage. Clothes drying (if electric) could be done
outside the water heater operation, but also during the day. Space heating
(if
electric) could also be done during the day to "store" that energy in the
buildings thermal envelope. This should help the PV system offset the
utility
loads and increase the value of the power they generate.

Here we are with BushCo rhetoric finally admitting we are rapidly heading at
an
energy depletion brick wall full speed... and we have knucklehead states
like
Ohio discouraging clean renewable energy by effectively penalizing the power
they
produce. What is wrong with this picture???

Todd

David Katz wrote:

> Geoff,
> There is a problem with load shifting with batteries. The batteries will
> cost $0.15 to $0.25 per kilowatt hour if they are well taken care of and
> more if they are ruined early, so he cannot win. If the customer goes
> with a low cost battery like a Trojan L16, each battery can discharge
> about 1 kwh per day if cycled to half discharge. At that rate they would
> be good for 5 years maximum, which is 1825 kilowatt hours per battery.
> $200 / 1825 = $.11 / kwh. You will also lose 10% in the batteries and
> 20% in the inverter. $.11/.7 = $0.16 per kwh. He would be better off
> with the 1.5 cents per kwh from the wind and no batteries.
> Cheers
> David
> David Katz
> President, AEE Solar
> formerly Alternative Energy Engineering
> 1155 Redway Drive - Box 339
> Redway, CA 95560 USA
> (707) 825-1200
> (707) 825-1202
> email: david at aeesolar.com
> web: www.aeesolar.com
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 08:30:03 -0400
From: "Geoff Greenfield" <geoff at frognet.net>
Subject: RE: Re: Gridtek 10 islanding with outback?

Thanks for doing the math for me (and as a third party for my customer...)
He really thought he could "make it work..." and the customer is always
right  ;-)  (ahhhhh diplomacy... THAT should be in the NABCEP scope...)

Other developments - Pieter at Bergey pointed out big differences in Gridtek
VS SB, and also inferred that SB/outback marriages have been successful
based on luck as much as anything else... I don't think we will risk letting
the smoke out of that box.  My current plan is to swap the gridtek for the
transformer/VCS-10 and put in a traditional 48 volt system.

FYI - this customer (on his own) salvaged and rebuilt a forest service fire
watch tower and then klugged a mast to put the 10K on... Still up after 3
years.  What a view... below is his photo album - definitely not a typical
job.

http://community-2.webtv.net/Karma1955/FireTower

For a brighter energy future,

Geoff Greenfield
NABCEP Certified Energy Practitioner

THIRD SUN SOLAR & WIND POWER Ltd.
340 West State Street
Athens, OH 45701

www.third-sun.com
(740) 597-3111

-

Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 21:39:08 -0700
From: David Katz <david at aeesolar.com>
Subject: Re: Gridtek 10 islanding with outback? [RE-wrenches]

Geoff,
There is a problem with load shifting with batteries. The batteries will
cost $0.15 to $0.25 per kilowatt hour if they are well taken care of and
more if they are ruined early, so he cannot win. If the customer goes
with a low cost battery like a Trojan L16, each battery can discharge
about 1 kwh per day if cycled to half discharge. At that rate they would
be good for 5 years maximum, which is 1825 kilowatt hours per battery.
$200 / 1825 = $.11 / kwh. You will also lose 10% in the batteries and
20% in the inverter. $.11/.7 = $0.16 per kwh. He would be better off
with the 1.5 cents per kwh from the wind and no batteries.
Cheers
David
David Katz
President, AEE Solar
formerly Alternative Energy Engineering
1155 Redway Drive - Box 339
Redway, CA 95560 USA
(707) 825-1200
(707) 825-1202
email: david at aeesolar.com
web: www.aeesolar.com

Geoff Greenfield wrote:

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>
>Thanks for the reply - also (obviously) I could approach this with an SMA
>sunny island (right? lords of the red box?)
>
>Further conversations with the customer have shed more light on the
>situation. Instead of (as I assumed) being motivated by the value of having
>stand by power during outages and a desire to max efficiency/production
>during normal operation, the request for batteries is based on something
>else entirely.  The rural co-op has let him go pure bi-directional net
meter
>for 3 years due to lack of policy and luck... they have now installed
>computerized meters and sell him power at 10.6 cents and purchase it at 1.5
>cents.  On average, his wind offsets 60% of his use.  he wants to "load
>shift" (?) with a batt-verter system set up to power most of his 120 loads
>from the batts and charge from the grid/wind AC...  needing some sort of
>control to charge when the wind is exceeding household use, and obviously
to
>maintain the batts at some minimum should the wind hit the doldrums...
>
>A design challenge for sure!
>
>
>For a brighter energy future,
>
>Geoff Greenfield
>NABCEP Certified Energy Practitioner
>
>THIRD SUN SOLAR & WIND POWER Ltd.
>340 West State Street
>Athens, OH 45701
>
>www.third-sun.com
>(740) 597-3111
>------------------------------
>
>
>

------------------------------

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