pre-engineered ground racks [RE-wrenches]

Jeffery Wolfe, Global Resource Options jeff at globalresourceoptions.com
Sat Sep 11 14:04:32 PDT 2004


 

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Joel,

Other potential categories:
- Installed looks
- overall product line
- "how easy is it to get it from your distributor / to your job site"
(This is a function of location, your distributor, your job site, and
the product)
- reliability of the delivery. "Are all the pieces in the rack kit every
time?"
- Engineering backup of standard product line
- Engineering backup of extensions of catalog listed uses
Otherwise I think you've listed the key items. In order of importance to
us as an installer:

 - Ease of installation (speed) / assembly / conformability to a
non-ideal roof
 - Ability to field modify, within product limits, to meet field
conditions
 - Price
 - ease of delivery
 - reliability of delivery
 - breadth of overall product line
 - Engineering backup of standard line
 - Engineering backup of extensions to the catalog listings

Go ahead guys, roast the order of the list! I'm sure everyone has their
own order and preference, and many for very good reason. Our businesses
are all a little different.

We do not have sufficient experience to do a comparisons between all the
manufacturers, and I think, this would be very hard to do. I learned in
the construction business that two equally competent contractors will
wildly like two very different products for the same application. And
they would often both be right. For a myriad of reasons, including
experience, local labor factors, supplier issues, local engineer
preferences, bad experience with "the other product", personal
relationships, etc., the final choice of product does not come down to a
black and white picture.

Jeff

-----Original Message-----
From: Joel Davidson [mailto:joeldavidson at earthlink.net] 
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 9:35 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: Re: pre-engineered ground racks [RE-wrenches]

Hello Jeff,
I don't do rack mounted PV anymore so maybe some who knows UniRac, Pro
Solar AND Direct Power & Water racks would like to do a comparison
matrix. What categories do you think are important besides price,
delivery time, ease in handling, ease in assembly, ease in installing,
ease in making changes?
Best regards,
Joel Davidson

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeffery Wolfe, Global Resource Options"
<jeff at globalresourceoptions.com>
To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 6:35 AM
Subject: RE: pre-engineered ground racks [RE-wrenches]




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We've done a little bit of ProSolar, and a lot of UniRac. In the
interest of full disclosure, I'll also note that we are a UniRac
distributor. (We've been approached by "others", but due to our
experiences, we have stayed with UniRac)

First, we do not use standoffs very often. My background in residential
and commercial roofing (hey, I needed a job) gives me high confidence,
over the long term, with our installation method of feet to shingles.
(We do NOT use any type of penetrating mount on flat roofs. Too much
snow and rain out here. Also too much load shifting when the PV's are
covered with snow and supported on only half or 1/3 of the rafters).

So I'm out of the debate on standoffs.

So far as the rest of the product, we find the standard product installs
very fast. The new T-bolts eliminate some of the issues mentioned. The
flexibility of having back or front mount clips on the same rail is
great. Product is easier to cut. Product is stronger. (More of a factor
when we're installing on a 45 degree roof, common out here, and put
quite a bit of body weight on the rails as they become sort of a ladder.
Yes we tie off.)

UniRac ground mounts use 2" pipe. This is a plus and a minus. Costs
more. Heavier. But, we can have the front of the panels off the ground
enough to avoid snow. (This ain't southern California... ) We can use
the product in more structurally demanding applications. We do.

UniRac also has a very complete line. The do not make 100% of everything
we need, but it's close. One supplier is nice, on all sides. UniRac
continues to make improvements. (And contrary to the word I've heard on
the street, these improvements are not all simply following someone
else's ideas. I had an idea for a front mount clamp rack, drawn up on a
napkin, before I got into the solar business full time. Does that mean
everyone else stole my idea? I think there's still some independent
creativity that can come to similar designs, given a similar problem to
solve.)

Shipping weight will soon be a non-issue for us. We'll be bringing full
trucks to the east, and my understanding is they become space limited,
not weight limited.

So we like UniRac. I will not say disparaging things about the
competition. They also have a good product, and I'm sure those who use
it regularly are being well served. Our industry needs to grow by
emphasizing companies strengths, not nay saying others. Let's not turn
this into a Presidential campaign.

Jeff Wolfe
Global Resource Options

-----Original Message-----
From: Joel Davidson [mailto:joeldavidson at earthlink.net]
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 9:06 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: Re: pre-engineered ground racks [RE-wrenches]



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I've heard from other installers that they prefer Pro-Solar instead of
Unirac. Anyone who had done a lot of both feel differently?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Graham Owen" <graham at solarexpert.com>
To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 10:11 AM
Subject: RE: pre-engineered ground racks [RE-wrenches]




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Hey Bill,

You asked if I use Pro Solar Products Inc. hardware for installation of
solar panels on rooftops.  My short answer is; YES this equipment makes
my installations quicker, easier, simple, safe, durable and compliant.

My longer answer is; long before PV became popular in the city of Los
Angeles I bought my solar thermal mounting hardware from Pro Solar and I
still use their racks for mounting solar pool-heating panels as well as
PV.  I have been told that only recently building departments have begun
requiring engineering for solar panel mounting hardware, perhaps this is
true in some areas but full documented engineering has been required for
as long as I've been doing solar installations in L.A.   Back in the
early eighties pulling a permit for installing solar panels in L.A.
required engineering for the installation to withstand wind loads up to
99 mph.  If I recall correctly 100 mph and higher was considered "an act
of god".  Here in L.A. the Santa Anna windy season is extremely intense
with hurricane force winds (without the rain) experienced frequently in
the fall and winter.  I have full confidence that Pro Solar mounting
hardware ,when properly and structurally attached to the roof will never
blow off.

Before getting into manufacturing solar panel attachment hardware Pro
Solar's owner Stan Ulmann used to be an installing solar contractor.  I
worked with Stan back in the mid eighties installing one of the largest
commercial sized solar water heating systems in the San Fernando Valley.
He knows what installers need, less time spent on rooftops, especially
the numerous 100-degree days of summer, without sacrificing equipment
strength or longevity.  I truly believe that Stan spends more time
focusing on quality control and innovation as opposed to devising
marketing schemes.  Unlike the competition who has very recently
outsourced their aluminum extrusions to be made in China to hopefully
increase profit margins, Pro Solar products continue to provide jobs in
California.

Pro Solar "Tile-Trac" is a patented product that has been used since the
1990's and the only other alternative for existing tile roofs is either
a hangar-bolt (wont get a permit in L.A.) or remove the tiles and
install flashable standoffs.  The competition would like to see building
departments require the removal of tiles which opens the market to their
standoffs.  That said; lets compare the flashable standoffs; Pro Solar's
"Fast-Jacks" will fit both an Oatey rubber boot flashing as well as
standard all metal flashings.  The new Uni-Rac aluminum standoffs fits
well under an Oatey flashing but will not allow a metal flashing to be
flush with the roof, the sheet metal hangs up on the base plate.  (I
know my roofer friends would not be happy roofing in a non-flush
flashing.) This new standoff also has a ferrous plough bolt that secures
the post to the base plate and the post's internal threaded cavity goes
from top to bottom, which could allow water to eventually rust the
plough bolt. I wont use them. They look nice, are less expensive to make
because the hollow extrusion can be threaded with anyone with a drill
press and a tap-matic but I much prefer the Fast-Jacks with a solid
core, CNC hobbed threads and stainless steel hardware.  It takes 11
turns with slip-joint pliers to tighten the Uni-Solar post into the base
as opposed to 3 1/2 with a Fast-Jack.  This alone saves considerable
time especially on a large install trying to thread posts through
flashings into the bases.

Pro Solar was the first manufacturer to introduce top-down module
mounting clips, which is also a patented technology.  I prefer the
original product to the recent knock-off's.  I much prefer the original
design, where a bolt is threaded downwards, through the module clip, and
tightened into a channel grab nut.  As opposed to the Uni-Rac method of
sliding bolt heads into their extruded channel and a nut tightened above
the module clip.  From servicing a PV array mounted on Uni-Rac one
problem I encountered is trying to remove a module for replacement and
finding that trying to loosen the nut is difficult because the head of
the bolt spins down in the channel.  Resulting in having to hacksaw the
bolts, not fun on a hot roof.  I have also seen on two occasions holes
burned into the modules and even melted the glass, caused by installers
who lost track of a bolt and tightened the module down with the bolt
cutting into the module backing.

Sorry for such a long reply, I could keep going on.  If I were
installing on the east coast I would also prefer the Pro Solar mounts
and rails because they cost less, mostly due to no marketing expenses
and weigh much less, so shipping costs would also be lower.

Graham

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