Grid-Tie Inverters with Batteries [RE-wrenches]

Tue Sep 7 10:17:54 PDT 2004

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Jeff,

Thanks for the feedback.

(I wish I could put my own values on others. There are a bunch of folks who
I'd like to change their minds. You may be right about me projecting my
values on others. I am continually amazed how most Americans believe in
individualism but are uncomfortable with uniquely different individuals.
Alexis de Tocqueville wrote two excellent books about Americans. Many of
his insights are still valid. See http://www.tocqueville.org/ and other
references.)

A few years ago a survey showed that 11% of affluent Americans had a backup
generator in case of utility power failure.

I'm beginning to agree with Home Power that there is an article in this
thread. I hope other Wrenches write in on this topic.

Best regards,
Joel Davidson

Original Message:
-----------------
From: Jeffery Wolfe, Global Resource Options jeff at globalresourceoptions.com
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 22:40:55 -0400
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: Grid-Tie Inverters with Batteries [RE-wrenches]

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Joel,

I think I hear you putting your own values on "the average customer".
You are not the average customer!

Mr. And Mrs. Joe and Josephine Average (she no longer uses his first
name as her own) barely know where their power comes from, except that
it pollutes. (People have no clue what the actual power mix in their
state or district is). People may dream of being independent, but they
realize that they are still buying gas, food, clothing, heating fuel,
and that a simple battery system does not provide them "independence".
We are all hooked to the "grid" in many ways, even those who say they
are "off-grid".

Yes, I think battery systems will sell more with equipment that is
easier to install and easier to operate (key call back issue), but I do
not believe it will represent even 25% of the installations.

Remember, on an incentivized system that costs $8 and has an incentive
of $4, adding $1 to the cost increases the cost to the customer by 25%,
not 12.5%. With battery systems frequently costing $2/watt more by the
time the batteries are installed, system is wired at 48V, and the AC
conversion is done, this is a major disincentive.

We're not fooling any of our customers into a batteryless system. It's a
topic of discussion. And the vast majority, even when directly
confronted with the choice BEFORE money is mentioned, indicate that they
do not need or want battery backup.

Jeff Wolfe
Global Resource Options

-----Original Message-----
From: Joel Davidson [mailto:joeldavidson at earthlink.net] 
Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 7:50 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: Re: Grid-Tie Inverters with Batteries [RE-wrenches]

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Hello Allan,

Thanks for writing in. The success of the Sunny Boy and other
non-battery inverters in California and other rebate regions has
over-shadowed the fact that a lot of customers want or need backup
power. People also want control of their lives and a feeling of
self-reliance. A similar backlash happened when hospitals completely
took over childbirthing. Now many parents want to actively participate
in their children's birth. People don't like feeling helpless about
light, heat, air, water, food, birthing and childraising, etc.

Yet most customers buy batteryless PV systems. Has wrench had a customer
switch from a batteryless to a battery system or visa versa?

Best regards,
Joel Davidson

----- Original Message -----
From: "Allan Sindelar" <allan at positiveenergysolar.com>
To: "New wrenches posting" <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: Grid-Tie Inverters with Batteries [RE-wrenches]

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joel Davidson" <joeldavidson at earthlink.net>
Wrenches,

<Wrenches,

The Home Power folks have been looking at this dialogue and think that
there
may be a good article about grid-tie battery and batteryless PV systems.
The
questions about payback resulted in a pretty interesting article so I
trust
their judgment. Truth is customers ask almost daily about battery versus
batteryless. So here's a few more questions. Thanks in advance for your
answers.>

What percentage of the time is the grid down in a typical U.S. city,
suburb,
and country location?
I dunno, Joel.

What about grid down time in your locale?
I live off-grid, so my info is second-hand from our customers. Very
little
in the Santa Fe area, it seems--that is, it's not a presenting issue as
a
primary reason for inquiring about an RE system. Occasionally someone at
the
end of a rural line expresses concerns about outages, but not very
often. We
have one good customer (definitely not a nut!) who wanted security
against
major grid failure, so we put in 3.6 kW of PV and a 10 kW generator on a
sealed battery-based system in town with major house rewiring. But few
customers have $60K to invest in a serious system like that.

What percentage of your grid-tied PV installations are battery?
batteryless?
New Mexico currently has no state incentives, so our GT customers'
primary
motivation is green, not economic. Also, in spite of this, we have
installed
the most GT systems in the state, I believe. But that's only 17 systems
since
1997, both battery and b'less, for a total of 44+ kW. Note too that I am
only
including systems with a net metering agreement with a utility as GT
systems--we also have at least one battery-based system with grid
backup.
Until 2001 it was all battery-based SW stuff. We installed our first
b'less
system on 9/11/01. Since then only three systems have had battery
storage.

How important is backup to your urban, suburban, rural users?
See above. Most of our rural users are off-grid.

What is the financial and efficiency cost of adding backup? Are your
customers aware of these costs?
We resolve battery/batteryless questions very early in the lead
development-educational process. My first two questions at an initial
meeting are "Where'd you get our name?" and "What's your primary
motivation?" I listen carefully to motivation. Only if "power during an
outage" is given as primary do I discuss batteries. Most people would
prefer
a no-maintenance system. I explain why the system shuts down during an
outage, even if the sun is shining, and customers accept that
explanation
(lineman safety/UL requirements) as reasonable.

How often do your batteryless PV system customers regret not having
battery
backup?
Hasn't happened yet. We have used Sunnyboys exclusively for our b'less
systems, and I have explained to a couple of customers that in a year or
two
the Sunny Island will be available to add to their system if they want
backup later.

How often do your grid-tie battery PV system customers regret not going
batteryless?
Hasn't happened yet. My message here is be clean and clear in
communicating
with the customer; offer straightforward answers about what to expect;
under-promise and over-deliver. Our customers seldom have or express
regrets
to us.

What other important things come to mind when you and your customers
talk
about battery versus batteryless PV?
When I encourage b'less to a green-motivated customer, I point out that
while the system shuts down during an outage (and why), that's no
different
than it was before the system was installed. Since most customers here
didn't come to us with "power during outages" as a primary motivation,
it
becomes a non-issue for them.

Until recently, if a customer wanted GT with batteries, we encouraged
them
to wait, as better technology was on its way than the current SW/GTI
hardware. Now that better choices are available, some aspects of our
approach may change. I think the biggest issue is dealing with
site-specific
issues: how difficult is it to add a critical-loads subpanel and move
some
existing circuits over to the new panel? I think our approach will not
change in a major way--we just have better solutions now when a customer
indicates that backup is of primary concern.

Allan at Positive Energy

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