T-240 circuit problem [RE-wrenches]
Matt Tritt
solarone at charter.net
Thu Sep 4 21:04:20 PDT 2003
Hi Ray,
When dealing with suspicious water sources, I use a .5 micron filter,
preceded by a sand filter, preceded by a leaf and debris trap. The .5
filter eliminates > 99% of all microbals; that's equal or better than
all muni.systems in the country have to offer.
Many microbes survive floculation and sedimentation and chlorination,
which is the usual treatment method for all surface sources in the U.S.
If this isn't good enough, what is?
You have a far greater chance of getting giardia off a door knob than
from a properly designed domestic storage and delivery system. I've put
in many water systems and never had one test positive for baddies. But
then I always use above ground tanks. Maybe underground tanks are more
prone to contamination? Having run a tank yard and distribution shop for
a number of years, it always seemed that underground poly tanks have
very sketchy "seals"; no rubber, wavy surfaces and flexible walls.
Fiberglass and concrete underground tanks retain their intended shape
and have more reliable mating surfaces. They have the disadvantage of
costing more and being harder to install.
Many of the tanks we built and installed had to meet extremely high
federal govt. standards, which included spraying down the inside
(including roof and lid) with bleach, flushing, and then
super-chlorinating the first tank full of water, which was drained
before use. If you do it this way, and ensure a really water-tight seal
on all at or below grade joints and fixture, you'll never go wrong.
Matt T
-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Walters [mailto:remotech at taosnm.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 5:09 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: RE: T-240 circuit problem [RE-wrenches]
Hi Matt;
The tank I used was a polyethylene underground rated with a tight
fitting
lid and a second manhole cover past that. Sealed well head pumped into
that, with a flow light booster pump running through a 10 micron filter
into the pressure tank. We had disinfected the entire system before with
bleach. The problem is that little bugs and blowing dust still managed
to
get in (slight sediment in tank bottom.)
The bottom line is that it later flunked a general coliform bacteria
test
and so have similar systems.
No way can you guarantee the water quality of open (no pressure) storage
tanks unless you fully treat the water after.
Ray
At 07:10 PM 9/2/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>Ray,
>
>Thanks for the words of caution. However - I am going to make the
>assumption that you live somewhere East of California, Oregon and
>Washington. In California (where lawyers are hiding behind every water
>tank) and most of the West, it's not only legal to store potable water
>in an above-ground tank, it's the accepted norm. The exception is if
>you are pulling water from a surface source such as a spring or creek.
>Then the health department requires a test for bacterium and viruses.
>This is a non-specific test by the way. If it comes back positive you
>have to take steps to clean up the water before it comes into the
>house. I usually use ultra-filtration, ozone and RO in those cases. No
>one has gotten sick using water from my systems yet; if they have, they
>ain't talkin! (and I've been putting them in for about 30 years)
>
>Most of our wells are 150' to 500' deep with water generally standing
>around 80+. All wells are sealed against surface contamination and all
>require a well report be submitted to the County. I always
>decontaminate tanks and plumbing when starting-up a new system with
>Calcium hypochlorite or Hydrogen peroxide. Safety
>First!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-)
>
>Once the system is in and working, the chances of a tank becoming
>contaminated are virtually nil (unless someone mistakes the manhole for
>a toilet).
>
>Matt T
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ray Walters [mailto:remotech at taosnm.com]
>Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 10:32 AM
>To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>Subject: Re: T-240 circuit problem [RE-wrenches]
>
>
>Hi All;
>
>Ample water storage is a good idea; pumping it into the house and
>thinking its potable is NOT. I would recommend a sealed system for
>water supply to
>the house and a cistern (rain catch possibly) with a pressure pump to
a
>
>yard hydrant for fire protection and gardening. I've seen most cistern
>systems fail water quality tests due to coliform type bacteria. Unless
>you want to start chlorinating the cistern regularly, I'd look at the
>sealed
>
>system only.
>Not to be a lawyer, but the liability of customers contracting Giardia
>isn't worth it.
>
>Ray Walters
>Taos Power, SolarRay
>
>At 04:06 PM 8/30/2003 -0700, you wrote:
> >Bob-O et al,
> >
> >It's good to know that the SQ will work with inverters. Maybe I need
> >to
>
> >change my AC pump supplier. I don't see the reason to run a
> >pressurizing sub pump - sans water tank though. If you live outside
> >the
>
> >distributed water supply, you'd have to be slightly out of yer gourd
> >NOT to have a nice, big holding tank, a 4" supply to (at least) one
> >hydrant, and a booster pump for other purposes, unless there's a good
> >fall from the tank. This is like running an off-grid house with four
> >T-105's and hoping that the power input never goes off!
> >
> >Matt T
> >
> > Message -----
> >From: "Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection" <econnect at snowcrest.net>
> >To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
> >Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 3:07 PM
> >Subject: Re: T-240 circuit problem [RE-wrenches]
> >
> >
> > > Matt, Dave, etal,
> > > I've got a few SQE pumps running on sine wave inverters with no
> > > worries both in 120V (now discontinued, I think) and 240V through
> > > a T240. I did, however, have one bummer SQE which worked out of
> > > the box but poorly. More poorly on the inverter than the genny.
> > > Dontcha hate that? Grundfos gave my supplier credit for it
> > > eventually, but it was a hassle with me having to buy a second
> > > pump to get the client back in water. I was very unimpressed by
> > > the glacial speed at
>
> > > which Grundfos dealt with the problem. Best, Bob-O
> > >
> > > >Dave,
> > > >
> > > >As I remember, the SQ is a variable speed, constant pressure
> > > >pump, which includes an inverter within the pump itself. They
> > > >might be trying to run
> >an
> > > >inverter with another inverter - a function which is highly
> > > >improbable,
> >if
> > > >not impossible. (This according to Hays Pump who also make a
> > > >similar type
> >of
> > > >pump I was interested in powering with a 4048 a few years ago)
> > > >
> > > >This pump will run great on generator power or grid, but not on
> > > >inverter power.
> > > >
> > > >Matt T
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: "David Palumbo, Independent Power & Light" <ipl at sover.net>
> > > >To: "Wrenches" <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
> > > >Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 8:54 AM
> > > >Subject: T-240 circuit problem [RE-wrenches]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> A customer reports the following:
> > > >>
> > > >> 240v water pump operating off of OutBack FX2024 inverter by
> > > >> way of a
> >Trace
> > > >> T-240 (we specked Trace because T-240 comes with box and
> > > >> customer did
> >not
> > > >> have OutBack AC box on his system) making loud "grinding
> > > >> noises"
>
> > > >> while attempting to power the water pump. The pump is a
> > > >> Grundfos
>
> > > >> SQ sub pump pumping into a standard pressure tank setup. FX
> > > >> inverter appears to be operating fine as he reports no
> > > >> problems with other loads.
> > > >>
> > > >> TriMetric system monitor showed current going from normal 45
> > > >> amps dc
> >at
> > > >24v
> > > >> up to 90 amps during this episode. He reported that these
> > > >> numbers were jumping back and forth violently and the
> > > >> TriMetric meter actually
> >re-set
> > > >> itself to 100% at this time.
> > > >>
> > > >> I told him to check all his connections etc. He said he had
> > > >> already
> >done
> > > >> that. I had him then disconnect the pump feed wire from the
> > > >> T-240 and connect the pump directly to his 240v generator
> > > >> output. He called back
> > > >later
> > > >> to report that he tried this and the water pump worked fine
> > > >> directly
> >from
> > > >> the generator.
> > > >>
> > > >> He has had the T-240 working in his system since early spring
> > > >> with
> >good
> > > >> performance until now.
> > > >> The circuit is as follows: FX2024 > 120vac load ctr > 15A
> > > >> breaker >
> > > >pressure
> > > >> switch > T-240 T-former > 240v Grundfos SQ sub pump.
> > > >>
> > > >> Do Transformers go bad? Or what else might cause this problem?
> > > >>
> > > >> Thanks,
> > > > > Dave
> > >
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