Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]

Thu May 29 06:01:03 PDT 2003

Dean and All,

I buy SS self drilling screws from:

Chesapeake Marine Fasteners, 800-526-0658, 10 Willow St, Annapolis, MD 21401
http://www.chesfast.com/

These screws are not 18-8 alloy because they need to be a little harder but
they are stainless. They work in aluminum but probably not steel.
They sell nationwide and have an excellent selection of stainless fasteners
of all types.
Ask for Jim and tell him I sent you and that you're a solar guy too. He
doesn't believe that there are really more of us out there ;)
Cheers,

Jason Fisher

Aurora Energy
P.O.Box 3315
Annapolis, MD 21403

v/f: 410-268-3684
email: aurora at toad.net

-----Original Message-----
From: Dean T. Newberry [mailto:deant at dcn.org]
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2003 9:02 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: Re: Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]

Hi Bill, Can I get a citation on where to order the self drilling self
tapping stainless ground screws??

thanks  deant at dcn.org

Bill Brooks wrote:

>E.H.
>
>Sorry for not responding earlier. I like to keep people on their toes so
>they don't pigeon-hole me as an NEC-zealot.
>
>Another example of drilling arrays is Troy Strand's company IEC in Southern
>California. His new commercial roof-mounting technique consists of drilling
>four, self-tapping, fine-thread stainless screws in each end of the module
>frame. He has worked with Kyocera, UniSolar, and AstroPower, and none of
>them have problems with their modules being drilled in this manner.
>
>Bill.
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: EH Roy [mailto:ehroy at solar-works.com]
>Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 7:47 AM
>To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>Subject: FW: Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]
>
>
>Bill,
>
>Thanks for your reply. I agree that no equipment grounding on the array is
a
>bad move and didn't mean to smack any hornet's nests with my note. This
type
>of protest just seemed a bit out of character for you, but the news that
you
>have not been denied warranty claims on drilled modules sure makes this
>practice less risky than I had perceived. Thanks!
>
>E. H.
>
>E. H. Roy
>Solar Works, Inc.
>64 Main Street
>Montpelier, VT 05602
>1-800-339-7804 ext. 306
>ehroy at solar-works.com
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Bill Brooks [mailto:billb at endecon.com]
>Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 9:26 AM
>To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>Subject: RE: Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]
>
>Mr. Roy,
>
>The manufacturer will always tell you it voids the warranty, but unless
they
>can show a reasonable doubt that your hole caused the failure, an installer
>would be foolish to accept that explanation for not honoring a warranty. I
>have had three modules replaced myself for partial failures--each had holes
>drilled, and the manufacturer honored the warranty.
>
>I don't like telling people to drill holes and I warn them that the
>manufacturer may give them a hard time on a warranty claim, but this is an
>active protest against an unresponsive manufacturing industry. They have
>known about this issue for many years, and we continue to be stuck with
>fixing the crappy way modules are grounded and I'm fed up. Apparently now
>there are some manufacturers finally taking this seriously. If you're
overly
>concerned that the manufacturer is going to use the hole as an excuse to
>deny your warranty, don't do it.
>
>The problem I see in the field is that installers don't do it at all, and
>that is much worse than drilling holes in the end of the module. Of course,
>the danger of drilling the module frame is hitting the back skin--so that
>must be protected to prevent disturbing the back skin.
>
>Good question and thanks for calling me on it.
>
>Bill.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: EH Roy [mailto:ehroy at solar-works.com]
>Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 1:40 PM
>To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>Subject: RE: Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]
>
>
>Bill,
>
>I am all for putting pressure on module manufacturers to put a decent
>grounding mechanism in an accessible location on module frames (or rack
>manufacturers to develop a listed means of creating continuity between
>module and rail) but I am quite surprised that you are teaching people to
>drill holes in the end of the module when I think we have all been told
that
>voids the module warranty.
>
>When a module manufacturer receives a failed module that doesn't put out
>warranted power after 15 years of use (it happens) and that manufacturer
>denies replacement because it claims the warranty was voided by a
>customer-drilled end hole, who pays for the replacement module? The
>customer? The installer who drilled the hole? Or the guy who taught the
>installer to do that?
>
>E. H. Roy
>Solar Works, Inc.
>64 Main Street
>Montpelier, VT 05602
>1-800-339-7804 ext. 306
>ehroy at solar-works.com
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Bill Brooks [mailto:billb at endecon.com]
>Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 3:42 PM
>To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>Subject: RE: Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]
>
>Jay,
>
>My experience is that manufacturers have universally not paid much
attention
>to this issue as seen with the various lame grounding methods that they
>allow according to their listing.
>
>The listing only allows connection at the grounding point. That's a real
>pain for roof mounted systems. I've gotten fed up with manufacturers being
>unresponsive and have started teach people to use lay-in lugs on the end of
>the module for ease of installation. Manufacturers have all kinds of
>heartburn when you start drilling holes in the end of their modules, but
>maybe that will drive them to drilling the hole for us.
>
>Bill.
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jay Peltz, Peltz Power [mailto:jay at asis.com]
>Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 11:09 AM
>To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>Subject: Re: Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]
>
>
>Hi John and Bill,
>
>OK, so here is my question.
>
>I'm holding in my hand a "grounding screw" from Sharp/Schott.  This screw
is
>SS, is machine thread, and is really really small.  It is so small that it
>will rattle around in the listed grounding hole.  Yes it has a star washer.
>
>How is using this any different than installing a star washer on the frame
>either under the mounting frame or a surface attachment for the top down
>style?
>
>And if the manufacture gives me a grounding screw, can I use anything else
>without voiding the UL warranty?  If so, can I install the ground anywhere,
>or do I have to use the approved grounding hole?
>
>Thanks
>
>jay.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "John Berdner" <jberdner at sma-america.com>
>To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
>Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 10:55 AM
>Subject: RE: Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]
>
>
>
>
>>Jay:
>>
>>The problem with grounding through the frame is that many of the frames
>>are anodized aluminum (read as excellent insulator).  Unless the
>>structure has been evaluated as a grounding member you can't rely on it
>>to provide the equipment ground.  I think this could be solved with
>>insulation piercing hardware, e.g. star washers, but so far none of the
>>structure manufacturers has developed this concept to the point that it
>>can be listed as a means of grounding.  In absence of Listed "systems"
>>that provide equivalent grounding means, the Code says you have to run a
>>ground wire to every module to make sure it stays grounded.  The UL
>>requirement for a ground is 0.1 Ohms at 60 Hz.  Given that we are
>>talking about dc I think UL would also want to see a dc impedance
>>measurement as well.
>>
>>Based on my own experience I have measured grounding impedances far
>>above this level when using only the frames for grounding.  Others such
>>as J. Wiles and B. Brooks have also confirmed high ground impedance on
>>frames when only the structures are used. Until we have a grounding
>>structure system I think you have to run a ground wire (even one long
>>one daisy chanied) to every module.  Also, J. Wiles has convinced me
>>that all splices in the equipment ground wires should made with "non
>>removable" pressure connections, i.e. butt splices or ferrules. Just my
>>$0.02.
>>
>>If you have any questions or if I may be of any further assistance,
>>please do not hesitate to contact me.
>>
>>Best Regards,
>>
>>John Berdner
>>
>>SMA America, Inc.
>>12438-C Loma Rica Road
>>Grass Valley, CA  95945
>>530.273.4595 - Tel
>>530.274.7271 - Fax
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Jay Peltz, Peltz Power [mailto:jay at asis.com]
>>Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 09:50 AM
>>To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>>Subject: Re: Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]
>>
>>Hi Dean,
>>
>>Can you give me the code # that states all panels must be grounded in
>>addition to the metal frame they are on?
>>
>>One installer I know puts in the permit all grounding to be done in
>>accordance with 250.136(a).  This allows for only a single ground wire
>>from
>>each seperate array.  Makes it much easier.
>>
>>thanks,
>>
>>jay
>>
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>>
>
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