C40's and SW's [RE-wrenches]

Wed Feb 5 21:13:05 PST 2003

Hi Matthew:
    I don't want to mention anything to my Advanced Energy Customers until
the bankruptcy proceedings have been resolved.  I feel optimistic that
existing warranties will be covered by a future manufacturer.
Nick
Alternative Power Systems
www.alternativepowersystems.com
aps at sbcglobal.net
135 Colfax Ave.
Grass Valley, CA 95945
(530) 274-0588 phone
(530) 274-0589 fax
----- Original Message -----
From: "matthew tritt" <solarone at charter.net>
To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 8:17 PM
Subject: Re: C40's and SW's [RE-wrenches]

> Hi Graham,
>
> I can't see why you would consider your customers to be Guinea Pigs when
> installing SBs for them, considering the lengthy experience with the units
> in Germany and elsewhere. The actual award for The Biggest Experiment
should
> go to either Advanced Energy or Xantrex. No? We all have installed plenty
of
> those and replaced almost as many. I wonder what will happen when the
> repaired GC's start crapping out!
> Big fun for sure. I told one of my customers about the bankruptcy and I
got
> the strangest look! :-)
>
> Matt T
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Graham Owen" <graham at solarexpert.com>
> To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 2:02 PM
> Subject: RE: C40's and SW's [RE-wrenches]
>
>
> > Hi Bill,
> >
> > Thanks for the sound advice.  When I wrote my long-term business plan,
> > with a lot of lessons learned from the 1986 collapse of the solar
> > industry, I vowed to only install products with at least two years of
> > untroubled local performance.  This may sound crazy to some, but I have
> > only just recently started working with SB inverters.  I don't like
> > making my customers guinea pigs.
> >
> > Thanks again, from a slow lemming,
> >
> > Graham
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Bill Brooks [mailto:billb at endecon.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 1:42 PM
> > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
> > Subject: RE: C40's and SW's [RE-wrenches]
> >
> >
> > Jay,
> >
> > With all due respect to the Outback folks, for grid-tied systems I would
> > not be so quick to toss my C-40s for a Max Power controller, whether
> > MX-60 or SB50. The additional cost may or may not pay for itself over
> > time and the reliability is an unknown. I don't think anyone has enough
> > hard data to make that blanket assessment.
> >
> > Our industry has been so quick to run like lemmings to the sea every
> > time a new idea or product comes on the market. I always like to ask the
> > lemmings why they are running so fast, where they are going, and for
> > what reason. They seldom can provide me with good information to join
> > them.
> >
> > Bill.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jay Peltz, Peltz Power [mailto:jay at asis.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 6:30 PM
> > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
> > Subject: Re: C40's and SW's [RE-wrenches]
> >
> >
> > I think that any discussion of C-40's on large arrays, especially
> > intertie is a moot point.
> >
> > Most interties are pretty large and so the use of a MPPT controller is
> > very cost effective and is any easy swap out.  ( especially as the MX-60
> > fits the same KO's)
> >
> >
> > In regards to the higher voltages equalling higher power, yes but I have
> > never seen any change in the output of the SW with the higher input
> > voltages.
> >
> > Peace,
> >
> > jay
> >
> > Peltz power
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jeffery Wolfe, Global Resource Options"
> > <jeff at globalresourceoptions.com>
> > To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 11:29 AM
> > Subject: RE: C40's and SW's [RE-wrenches]
> >
> >
> > > Bill,
> > >
> > > Although you're right that the C40 should never control, the point of
> > > the higher voltage settings is to make more power. We all know that
> > > the PV's will put out more power at higher voltages, so setting the
> > > inverter
> > higher,
> > > for float, is better. We also need to balance this with battery high
> > limits,
> > > and the fact that you need a pretty significant "dead band" in the
> > > control setpoints between the C40 and the Trace, due to inaccuracies
> > > in the
> > voltage
> > > meters in both units. (Trace told me 1.5 V, I'm typically using about
> > > 1.0 V).
> > >
> > > The 53.6VDC default on the inverters is also on the very low side of
> > > where we're floating batteries, even on-grid, today. We're moving
> > > hotter, more like 54.8 to 55.2. Batteries that float all year long
> > > tend to have
> > sulfation
> > > problems, and it seems that the hotter setpoints help reduce this.
> > > (Along with the little black boxes.) Couple this with the fact that
> > > on-grid
> > higher
> > > float voltages are going to produce more power, the case is made for
> > setting
> > > the floats about as high as the manufacturer's will let you. We do use
> > bulk
> > > mode, as it's good (IMHO) to bulk the batteries occasionally. So we
> > > set
> > the
> > > bulk up at about 58 VDC. This then pushes the bulks on the C40's up to
> >
> > > 59
> > to
> > > 59.5, in order to provide as much dead band as possible.
> > >
> > > We've got three years on our double C40 / SW system, as well as
> > > several others around the area. The low set points "work", but are not
> >
> > > the best
> > for
> > > power production (remember, we all complain about power production on
> > > PV systems), and are not necessarily the best for battery life.
> > >
> > > I do agree that the C40 float and bulk can be set the same, but it's
> > > more like setting the float to the same as a more typical bulk, rather
> >
> > > than the other way around.
> > >
> > > I also always use a Fluke to set up the C40 (and any other
> > > controller). I never trust the little dials or displays. They can be
> > > wrong (on any controller).
> > >
> > > Jeff
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Bill Brooks [mailto:billb at endecon.com]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 1:10 PM
> > > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
> > > Subject: RE: C40's and SW's [RE-wrenches]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Graham,
> > >
> > > I believe that bulk charging is meaningless in a grid-connected
> > application.
> > > Since the system is floated all the time, except during a power
> > > outage,
> > the
> > > focus is on the float settings. I would set the bulk timer on the
> > > inverter to 0:00 so it automatically goes to float. The default for
> > > the inverter is 53.6 Volts for float and I think that is fine for most
> >
> > > lead-acid
> > batteries.
> > > The key is making sure the C-40 is set at least one volt higher. It is
> > also
> > > critical that all controllers and inverters have temperature
> > > compensation probes installed and sensing basically the same
> > > temperature.
> > >
> > > Finally, check the C-40 while operating to make sure it is not
> > controlling.
> > > By testing the voltage drop across the C-40 positive battery and PV
> > > array inputs, you can tell whether it is controlling. The voltage
> > > should always
> > be
> > > below 0.75 Volts, otherwise it is controlling. It should only control
> > > in
> > an
> > > outage. Set the C-40 bulk at the same as the float, since the array
> > > should not be bulk charging the battery anyway. Bulk charging doesn't
> > > help a battery that stays at float all the time. It can actually hurt
> > > a VRLA battery by overcharging it if you allow it to bulk for more
> > > than a
> > half-hour
> > > or so. Hope that helps. Others may see it differently but I have over
> > > four years of grid-connected experience with my C-40s and SW.
> > >
> > > Bill.
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Graham Owen [mailto:graham at solarexpert.com]
> > > Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 9:01 PM
> > > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
> > > Subject: C40's and SW's [RE-wrenches]
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Colleagues,
> > >
> > > I need some Wrench assistance with a PV service call, for the Xantrex
> > > Power Module system (or power panel for that matter), you have to set
> > > the C40 charge controllers and the SW inverter so that the inverter
> > > can sell PV power to the grid without the controllers restricting
> > > current into the inverter in the first place. I am trying to determine
> >
> > > which set of values works the best.
> > >
> > > Are these good figures?
> > >
> > > C40  bulk   56.0
> > >      float   55.0
> > >
> > > inverter bulk  54.0
> > >        float   53.2
> > >
> > > Thanks in advance!
> > >
> > > Graham
> > >
> > > P.S. Joel, I am working on finding your CPUC answers, I was working
> > > out of town today.
> > >
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> >
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