Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]

Dean T. Newberry deant at dcn.org
Sat May 31 22:25:02 PDT 2003 

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Hi yAll,
I have requested Rainbow Fasteners to request a screw manufacturer to 
fabricate a standard pattern, 12-24 flange head self drilling screw in 
404 stainless for our use. I have placed an initial order for 50k units, 
I expect to hear back the first week of june the willingness of the 
manufacturer to produce the order. The noncompliant screw, 12-16 flange 
head self driller I am using now costs $5.15/lb I expect the 12-24 
pattern to be a similar price.
cul  deant at dcn.org

EH Roy wrote:

>Bill,
>
>Like you and others, I have been pushing manufacturers to give us holes in
>module ends and also asking about the impacts of drilling them ourselves.
>
>Evergreen was wishy-washy and didn't respond in writing. AstroPower told me
>they wouldn't have a problem with us drilling the holes but told me that it
>would void the UL listing of the module to ground it differently than using
>the provided holes. This seems like a non-safety issue and the risk seems
>low that an electrical inspector would call us on it. But a utility
>inspector might jump on it and ruin one's day.
>
>Why so much resistance on the part of module manufacturers to give us a
>couple extra grounding holes? Are they worried about module aesthetics or is
>it the additional paperwork and testing with UL, or is it just the costs of
>modifying the manufacturing process? I get no response on that.
>
>It would seem like a module manufacturer has a fantastic opportunity right
>now to put in the additional grounding holes and grab a significant
>additional share of the market before others follow suit.
>
>E. H. Roy
>Solar Works Inc.
>64 Main Street
>Montpelier, VT 05602
>802 223-7804 x306
>ehroy at solar-works.com
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Bill Brooks [mailto:billb at endecon.com]
>Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 1:05 AM
>To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>Subject: RE: Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]
>
>
>E.H.
>
>Sorry for not responding earlier. I like to keep people on their toes so
>they don't pigeon-hole me as an NEC-zealot.
>
>Another example of drilling arrays is Troy Strand's company IEC in Southern
>California. His new commercial roof-mounting technique consists of drilling
>four, self-tapping, fine-thread stainless screws in each end of the module
>frame. He has worked with Kyocera, UniSolar, and AstroPower, and none of
>them have problems with their modules being drilled in this manner.
>
>Bill.
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: EH Roy [mailto:ehroy at solar-works.com]
>Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 7:47 AM
>To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>Subject: FW: Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]
>
>
>Bill,
>
>Thanks for your reply. I agree that no equipment grounding on the array is a
>bad move and didn't mean to smack any hornet's nests with my note. This type
>of protest just seemed a bit out of character for you, but the news that you
>have not been denied warranty claims on drilled modules sure makes this
>practice less risky than I had perceived. Thanks!
>
>E. H.
>
>E. H. Roy
>Solar Works, Inc.
>64 Main Street
>Montpelier, VT 05602
>1-800-339-7804 ext. 306
>ehroy at solar-works.com
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Bill Brooks [mailto:billb at endecon.com]
>Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 9:26 AM
>To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>Subject: RE: Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]
>
>Mr. Roy,
>
>The manufacturer will always tell you it voids the warranty, but unless they
>can show a reasonable doubt that your hole caused the failure, an installer
>would be foolish to accept that explanation for not honoring a warranty. I
>have had three modules replaced myself for partial failures--each had holes
>drilled, and the manufacturer honored the warranty.
>
>I don't like telling people to drill holes and I warn them that the
>manufacturer may give them a hard time on a warranty claim, but this is an
>active protest against an unresponsive manufacturing industry. They have
>known about this issue for many years, and we continue to be stuck with
>fixing the crappy way modules are grounded and I'm fed up. Apparently now
>there are some manufacturers finally taking this seriously. If you're overly
>concerned that the manufacturer is going to use the hole as an excuse to
>deny your warranty, don't do it.
>
>The problem I see in the field is that installers don't do it at all, and
>that is much worse than drilling holes in the end of the module. Of course,
>the danger of drilling the module frame is hitting the back skin--so that
>must be protected to prevent disturbing the back skin.
>
>Good question and thanks for calling me on it.
>
>Bill.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: EH Roy [mailto:ehroy at solar-works.com]
>Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 1:40 PM
>To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>Subject: RE: Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]
>
>
>Bill,
>
>I am all for putting pressure on module manufacturers to put a decent
>grounding mechanism in an accessible location on module frames (or rack
>manufacturers to develop a listed means of creating continuity between
>module and rail) but I am quite surprised that you are teaching people to
>drill holes in the end of the module when I think we have all been told that
>voids the module warranty.
>
>When a module manufacturer receives a failed module that doesn't put out
>warranted power after 15 years of use (it happens) and that manufacturer
>denies replacement because it claims the warranty was voided by a
>customer-drilled end hole, who pays for the replacement module? The
>customer? The installer who drilled the hole? Or the guy who taught the
>installer to do that?
>
>E. H. Roy
>Solar Works, Inc.
>64 Main Street
>Montpelier, VT 05602
>1-800-339-7804 ext. 306
>ehroy at solar-works.com
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Bill Brooks [mailto:billb at endecon.com]
>Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 3:42 PM
>To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>Subject: RE: Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]
>
>Jay,
>
>My experience is that manufacturers have universally not paid much attention
>to this issue as seen with the various lame grounding methods that they
>allow according to their listing.
>
>The listing only allows connection at the grounding point. That's a real
>pain for roof mounted systems. I've gotten fed up with manufacturers being
>unresponsive and have started teach people to use lay-in lugs on the end of
>the module for ease of installation. Manufacturers have all kinds of
>heartburn when you start drilling holes in the end of their modules, but
>maybe that will drive them to drilling the hole for us.
>
>Bill.
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jay Peltz, Peltz Power [mailto:jay at asis.com]
>Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 11:09 AM
>To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>Subject: Re: Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]
>
>
>Hi John and Bill,
>
>OK, so here is my question.
>
>I'm holding in my hand a "grounding screw" from Sharp/Schott.  This screw is
>SS, is machine thread, and is really really small.  It is so small that it
>will rattle around in the listed grounding hole.  Yes it has a star washer.
>
>How is using this any different than installing a star washer on the frame
>either under the mounting frame or a surface attachment for the top down
>style?
>
>And if the manufacture gives me a grounding screw, can I use anything else
>without voiding the UL warranty?  If so, can I install the ground anywhere,
>or do I have to use the approved grounding hole?
>
>Thanks
>
>jay.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "John Berdner" <jberdner at sma-america.com>
>To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
>Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 10:55 AM
>Subject: RE: Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]
>
>
>  
>
>>Jay:
>>
>>The problem with grounding through the frame is that many of the frames
>>are anodized aluminum (read as excellent insulator).  Unless the
>>structure has been evaluated as a grounding member you can't rely on it
>>to provide the equipment ground.  I think this could be solved with
>>insulation piercing hardware, e.g. star washers, but so far none of the
>>structure manufacturers has developed this concept to the point that it
>>can be listed as a means of grounding.  In absence of Listed "systems"
>>that provide equivalent grounding means, the Code says you have to run a
>>ground wire to every module to make sure it stays grounded.  The UL
>>requirement for a ground is 0.1 Ohms at 60 Hz.  Given that we are
>>talking about dc I think UL would also want to see a dc impedance
>>measurement as well.
>>
>>Based on my own experience I have measured grounding impedances far
>>above this level when using only the frames for grounding.  Others such
>>as J. Wiles and B. Brooks have also confirmed high ground impedance on
>>frames when only the structures are used. Until we have a grounding
>>structure system I think you have to run a ground wire (even one long
>>one daisy chanied) to every module.  Also, J. Wiles has convinced me
>>that all splices in the equipment ground wires should made with "non
>>removable" pressure connections, i.e. butt splices or ferrules. Just my
>>$0.02.
>>
>>If you have any questions or if I may be of any further assistance,
>>please do not hesitate to contact me.
>>
>>Best Regards,
>>
>>John Berdner
>>
>>SMA America, Inc.
>>12438-C Loma Rica Road
>>Grass Valley, CA  95945
>>530.273.4595 - Tel
>>530.274.7271 - Fax
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Jay Peltz, Peltz Power [mailto:jay at asis.com]
>>Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 09:50 AM
>>To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>>Subject: Re: Where is Ground Clamps [RE-wrenches]
>>
>>Hi Dean,
>>
>>Can you give me the code # that states all panels must be grounded in
>>addition to the metal frame they are on?
>>
>>One installer I know puts in the permit all grounding to be done in
>>accordance with 250.136(a).  This allows for only a single ground wire
>>from
>>each seperate array.  Makes it much easier.
>>
>>thanks,
>>
>>jay
>>
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>>    
>>
>
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