GC-1000 repairs? [RE-wrenches]
RE wrenches
Geoff at Third-Sun.Com
Tue Nov 25 08:18:07 PST 2003
Anyone opening up a shop to repair GC-1000 inverters? I have one dead unit
we are considering to use the Sun Tie change out program on, but metering
will be a problem... and the cost is an issue... If I hadn't blown so many
neural synapses trying to re-memorize 9th grade trig for the NABCEP exam
maybe I'd be smart enough to troubleshoot and repair power electronics
without support (or even a schematic)...
I have about 25 orphaned units out there, one down (22 kwh after take off),
and most probably holding their own. The VERY nice folks from AE seem to be
back on board with Beacon, but they are not supporting the GC nor indicating
that this may happen in the future. Called the guy in the HP add "Inverter
Repair" - no go for the GC.
By the way, with racing heart I opened the envelope and found that I passed,
I am now a new age chakra manipulator! (or something to do with energy or
something or other....) All I can say is thank you to my latest new hire,
still young enough to remember "SOHCAHTOA"...
Sincerely,
Geoff Greenfield
THIRD SUN SOLAR AND WIND POWER
340 West State Street, Unit 25
Athens, OH 45701
Phone (740) 597-3111
Fax (740) 597-1548
www.third-sun.com
-----Original Message-----
From: RE-wrenches at topica.com [mailto:RE-wrenches at topica.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 7:10 AM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: Digest for RE-wrenches at topica.com, issue 1291
-- Topica Digest --
RE: SW Inverter firmware upgrade
By ipl at sover.net
Hornet wind turbine?
By windy at dankoffsolar.com
RE: Hornet wind turbine?
By solarone at charter.net
RE: Hornet wind turbine?
By solarone at charter.net
Re: Hornet wind turbine?
By hugh at scoraigwind.co.uk
Battery Life in Grid-Tie Systems
By solarsisterj at yahoo.com
Burn Fatality at Enxco's Altamont Wind Farm Site
By pgipe at igc.org
Re: Battery Life in Grid-Tie Systems
By I2P at aol.com
RE: SW Inverter firmware upgrade
By michael.welch at homepower.com
Re: Hornet wind turbine?
By allan at positiveenergysolar.com
Re: SW Inverter firmware upgrade
By allan at positiveenergysolar.com
RE: Hornet wind turbine?
By cfreitas at outbackpower.com
Re: Battery Life in Grid-Tie Systems
By Eric_Smiley at bcit.ca
Hornet wind turbine (and others)
By Roy at Four-winds-energy.com
Re: bad bad battery manu
By b.geddes at clear.net.nz
Re: Federal Energy Bush
By joeldavidson at earthlink.net
Re: SW Inverter firmware upgrade
By econnect at snowcrest.net
Re: Battery Life in Grid-Tie Systems
By freepower at freepower.co.nz
Request for Materials for HP Financing Article
By allan at positiveenergysolar.com
Re: SW Inverter firmware upgrade
By allan at positiveenergysolar.com
Re: Battery Life in Grid-Tie Systems
By daryl_solar at yahoo.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 11:19:53 -0500
From: "Independent Power & Light" <ipl at sover.net>
Subject: RE: SW Inverter firmware upgrade [RE-wrenches]
Wrenches,
Believe the following when you see it.
<<The firmware update is easy to accomplish and we are compensating dealers
to do the work ( 2hrs per SW @ $65 per hour plus a $50 per site allowance).
The compensation is paid by check within 2 weeks of receipt of our form. We
have contacted all dealers who have customers with an inverter that requires
the update.
Lloyd Gomm
Director, Marketing>>
I did firmware swap outs on two SW4024 last December and was promised
compensation by the since departed "dealer go between" Pagan. That never
happened, she left Xantrax and then someone else promised my compensation.
Nothing.
This is only one of the reasons that I no longer sell Trace products unless
I absolutely have to (which is happening less and less).
-Dave
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:09:44 -0700
From: "Windy Dankoff" <windy at dankoffsolar.com>
Subject: Hornet wind turbine?
Wrenches,
anybody know anything about this company or product?
http://www.hydrogenappliances.com/index.html
Windy
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 09:15:06 -0800
From: "Matt Tritt" <solarone at charter.net>
Subject: RE: Hornet wind turbine? [RE-wrenches]
Windy,
Looking for toys for the grandkids for Christmas? These things turn
extremely fast, make lots of noise and don't produce much power. Kind of
like an Air. ;-)
Matt T
-----Original Message-----
From: Windy Dankoff, Dankoff Solar [mailto:windy at dankoffsolar.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 9:10 AM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: Hornet wind turbine? [RE-wrenches]
Wrenches,
anybody know anything about this company or product?
http://www.hydrogenappliances.com/index.html
Windy
- - - -
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/
List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm
Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html
Hosted by Home Power magazine
Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 09:37:20 -0800
From: "Matt Tritt" <solarone at charter.net>
Subject: RE: Hornet wind turbine? [RE-wrenches]
Windy, I forgot to mention that "extremely fast" = 2,000 R.P.M. And
forget the toy idea, they warn people to "treat the blades like they
were a very sharp sword". They also suggest that "mini windfarms" in
your back yard are the way to go----- sound's like pretty scary yard
art!
Matt T
-----Original Message-----
From: Windy Dankoff, Dankoff Solar [mailto:windy at dankoffsolar.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 9:10 AM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject: Hornet wind turbine? [RE-wrenches]
Wrenches,
anybody know anything about this company or product?
http://www.hydrogenappliances.com/index.html
Windy
- - - -
To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Archive of previous messages: http://www.topica.com/lists/RE-wrenches/
List rules & etiquette: http://www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/etiquete.htm
Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html
Hosted by Home Power magazine
Moderator: michael.welch at homepower.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:00:57 +0000
From: Hugh <hugh at scoraigwind.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Hornet wind turbine? [RE-wrenches]
At 10:09 AM -0700 19/11/03, Windy Dankoff, Dankoff Solar wrote:
>Wrenches,
>
>anybody know anything about this company or product?
>
>http://www.hydrogenappliances.com/index.html
Ths question comes up on the a-w-h list from time to time.
Here are Paul Gipe, Mike Klemen and Doug Elsam
First Paul..............
September 14, 2001
Stirring Up a Hornet's Nest: New Turbine Generates Controversy
Copyright 2001 by Paul Gipe. All rights reserved. No portion of this
article may be copied or circulated without the express permission of the
author.
"We're not a very sophisticated company," Bob Green says humbly. Others
agree. The awea-wind-home web site is buzzing with questions about the
audacious claims of Green and his company, Thermodyne Systems of Lancaster,
California.
According to Green, Thermodyne has built about 70 of the 8-foot diameter
turbines in the past eight months. Most have been shipped to Canada and
Africa, he says. All for battery-charging.
Though their web site, www.hydrogenappliances.com depicts a hinged tower,
Green now says the company no longer provides towers.
Green says he and the company's three employees have built 20 to 30
hydrogen electrolizers in addition to the multiblade wind turbines.
Despite Green's claim that the company has been experimenting with wind
"for the past ten years", the firm has yet to master the fundamentals of
wind energy.
Green is quick to say that the power promised on the metal shop's web site
is "peak" power, and he explains that after they apply the load the "rotor
starts slowing down."
As Michael Klemen, a wind experimenter in North Dakota, has noted, the low
wind performance of the turbine exceeds reality.
At 5 mph, the web site claims the Hornet will produce 640% of the power
available in the wind; at 12 mph, 117%; at 22 mph, 49%; at 28 mph, 35%. The
Hornet's performance at 22 mph and 28 mph would make it one of the most
efficient small wind turbines ever built--even exceeding the aggressive
performance advertised for the Air 403 of 31%. The Hornet's performance at
5 mph and 12 mph is clearly impossible according to our understanding of
physical laws governing the power available in the wind.
Such wild claims for the Hornet could come back to sting Thermodyne in
litigious California.
-30-
Paul Gipe is the author of Wind Power for Home & Business, Wind Energy
Comes of Age, Wind Energy Basics, and Energía Eólica Práctica.
....................
Mike Klemen did a good answer back in February
At 3:28 PM -0600 9/2/03, Michael Klemen wrote:
>
>> I searched the archive and see that the Hornet
>>
>>(<http://www.hydrogenappliances.com/windpower.html)>http://www.hydrogenapp
liances.com/windpower.html)
>> did not exactly gain glowing reviews.
>
>Interesting. The Hornet they have now is a totally
>different machine than they were advertising the last
>time I commented on it. That one had aluminum blades
>and if I recall correctly, looked more like a water
>pumper.
>
>> Among other things, it seems people were irked at the
>> advertising claims concerning power output. Michael
>> Klemen (message 5820) pointed out that some of their
>> power claims are in fact theoretically
>> impossible.
>
>The data currently on their web site is pretty useless
>to comment on (doesn't even seem reasonable, either - 400W
>in a 10 mph wind- NOT). They allow the voltage and
>current to vary.
>
>Their measurement is probably at a given wind speed with
>open circuit voltage, then an instantaneous measurement
>of current when they turn the load on. You'd never
>experience that in real life! You could try to ask them
>for a constant voltage power curve...from there we can
>estimate energy output. I wonder if you'd even get a
>reply.
................
At 3:02 PM +0000 23/7/03, dougselsam wrote:
>
>Just would like to put in a good word for Ron Green of
>http://www.HydrogenAppliances.com
>I've found him to be extremely friendly and supportive of a fellow
>wind inventor. He's even come and visited our installation at our
>test site at Brent Scheibel's Windtesting facility in Tehachapi, at
>http://www.windtesting.com
>As an inventor just getting into wind energy, he apparently has his
>share of successes and not so successful products. He has an
>amazing amounty of energy and knowledge across many subjects, even
>if just cutting his teeth in wind - he's selling a lot of product
>while many others stand on the sidelines and wish. I can't speak to
>the blue max, which I happen to know he is working hard to improve,
>but I will say that using his hornet blades and alternators, in
>conjunction with my new design, we get a solid 900 - 1000 watts
>average at 28 mph, not even corrected for altitude, measured at the
>battery bank after line losses.
>You can view the power curves at http://www.selsam.com
>And we're improving from there - just getting started, really.
>His Hornet blades are an exceptional bargain. And I've found his
>Hornet alternator to be capable of 3000 watts peak power so far with
>no damage. He's truck-tested his hornets up to 100 mph with no
>damage.
>Sincerely,
>Doug Selsam
>Selsam Innovations
>2600 Porter Ave. Unit B
>Fullerton, CA 92833
>714-992-5594
>http://www.selsam.com
>Doug at Selsam.com
--
Hugh
in Edinburgh
http://www.scoraigwind.co.uk/
--
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:20:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Justine Sanchez <solarsisterj at yahoo.com>
Subject: Battery Life in Grid-Tie Systems
Hello wrenches,
Here is our question of the hour: can you expect a greater life expectancy
from a battery (sealed or flooded) when it is in grid-tied mode verses stand
alone mode?
The thought being that it is not cycled as often, so yes they should last
longer, right? Well we spoke with a sealed battery rep and he disagreed with
this thought. He said that when the battery is used with a sw inverter, and
has a constant amp charge on the battery from being in float mode, that the
plates of the battery actually deteriorate. He said to expect 5-7 years in
grid tied mode and 10-12 years in stand alone mode...(which seems strange to
hear of sealed battery getting that long of a life.)
Then a flooded battery rep disagreed with the sealed battery reps belief of
being able to overcharge a battery in float mode. He said it was untrue on
one hand, but then said to only expect 6-8 years from a L-16 battery in grid
with battery back-up mode, which seems low.
So, what is your experience on this matter...
Cheers!
-Justine Sanchez
SEI.
--
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:45:52 -0800
From: Paul Gipe <pgipe at igc.org>
Subject: Burn Fatality at Enxco's Altamont Wind Farm Site
November 18, 2003
by Paul Gipe
Burn Fatality at Enxco's Altamont Site
On September 19 at 7:30 pm Marty Evans died of burns received the previous
day at a wind farm managed by Enxco says California's Division of
Occupational Safety and Health (CalOSHA). Evans (34) was "performing a
switching operation when an explosion occurred" at about 11:00 am on the
18th. The explosion burned Evans over 80 percent of his body and started a
grass fire. The East Contra Costa Fired Department responded. CalOSHA has
opened an investigation of the accident and will exam Evans training,
qualifications, and work assignment as well as interview his colleagues to
determine the cause of the accident. No other details are available.
Enxco says the accident occurred when Evans was switching a pad-mounted
transformer. There are literally thousands of such transformers on
California wind farms and switching them is a common activity.
Enxco is a large diversified developer and operator of wind power plants.
The company is part of SIIF, the unregulated subsidiary of French utility
giant Electricite de France.
-End-
Paul Gipe
208 S. Green St., #5
Tehachapi CA 93561-1741 USA
+661 822 9150
+661 822 8452 fax
pgipe at igc.org
www.wind-works.org
Wind Power: Renewable Energy for Home, Farm, & Business, ISBN 1-931498-14-8
(spring, 2004)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 13:45:58 EST
From: I2P at aol.com
Subject: Re: Battery Life in Grid-Tie Systems [RE-wrenches]
In a message dated 11/19/2003 10:21:32 AM Pacific Standard Time,
solarsisterj at yahoo.com writes:
> and 10-12 years in stand alone mode...(which seems strange to hear of
> sealed battery getting that long of a life.
Seems high to me also. This is a tricky area with so many variables that
could change from system to system. Ie float voltage, amount of cycling,
mailntenence etc.
>From a pragmatic point of view , the verdict is not in for me. I do have
numerous Y2K systems, (SWs grid connected and mostlyl L16 batteries) some
almost 5
years in service with no battery problems. Maint for these floated systems
consists of twice yearly watering -(some actually only need water once a
year).
There is a general consensus that gels may be better for float service. I
would rely on real world experiences rather than battery reps spiels.
Don Loweburg
--
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:54:31 -0800
From: Michael Welch <michael.welch at homepower.com>
Subject: RE: SW Inverter firmware upgrade [RE-wrenches]
Roy still out of town, so I am posting this response from Lloyd Gomm
<Lloyd.Gomm at Xantrex.com>.
David Palumbo, Independent Power & Light wrote at 08:19 AM 11/19/2003:
>Wrenches,
>
>Believe the following when you see it.
>
><<The firmware update is easy to accomplish and we are compensating dealers
>to do the work ( 2hrs per SW @ $65 per hour plus a $50 per site allowance).
>The compensation is paid by check within 2 weeks of receipt of our form.
We
>have contacted all dealers who have customers with an inverter that
requires
>the update.
>Lloyd Gomm
>Director, Marketing>>
>
>I did firmware swap outs on two SW4024 last December and was promised
>compensation by the since departed "dealer go between" Pagan. That never
>happened, she left Xantrax and then someone else promised my compensation.
>Nothing.
I don't want to take this personally....but I am. Despite this message of
"fear, uncertainty, and doubt" I am offering Wrenches my personal assurance
that we will (and are) pay installers to do this work. I setup this program
and had our sr. management team agree to the budget. When we ship the SW
chip set kit (for this program) it includes an installer compensation form.
Simply send the form to us and we will issue a check.
Dave, I looked up your dealer name in our system and I was unable to find
any information on you. I can only guess that this was some kind of verbal
agreement between you and Pagan. If you take the time to contact me off
list, I WILL assist you.
Lloyd Gomm
Director, Marketing
Xantrex Technology Inc.
Website: <www.xantrex.htm>www.xantrex.com
t: 604/415-4685
f: 604/420-1591
Michael Welch
------------------------
"When one tugs at a single thing in nature, he finds it attached to the rest
of the world."
-John Muir
Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com
Home Power magazine
www.homepower.com
To reach me: 707-822-7884
To reach Home Power: 800-707-6585
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 12:02:16 -0700
From: "Allan Sindelar" <allan at positiveenergysolar.com>
Subject: Re: Hornet wind turbine? [RE-wrenches]
Here are a few selected lines copied from that web site. I think they speak
for themselves:
a.. 4000 RPM at 12.5 volts input
a.. 12 volt input voltage max.
a.. Sold as is - No warranty (All units are tested before shipping)
Hint: Try calling places that sell used fork lifts. The 12 volt batteries
that run fork lifts are the best! Many of these old batteries are discarded
becuase they can no longer operate a fork lift for a full 8 hour work day
but they still have enough operational life to run your household for many
decades. Many can be bought at recycling prices and still have 100 times
more amperage than a brand new bank of automotive batteries. (Note: They are
VERY heavy)
1. True sinewave inverters waste considerable battery energy due to their
voracious appetite for idle current (typically 120 Amp/hours per day) and
poor conversion efficiency (85% typically). These unacceptable losses must
be made up necessitating 2-3 more generator hours per day than you would
experience with our brand MSW inverter under identical usage!
2. Many motors that will start and run properly with a MSW inverter may fail
to start or run properly when powered with a true sinewave inverter due to
much lower surge and power factor capability.
3. True sinewave inverters are physically much larger than MSW inverters.
4. True sinewave inverters have considerably more components operating at
higher speeds and stress levels resulting in greatly reduced reliability.
5. A typical true sinewave inverter costs up to 4 times more than a MSW
inverter does!
Idle current is the power consumed from your battery to run the inverter
internal electronics. Since this current does not power your load, it is
wasted power. Typical 5000 Watt true sinewave inverter draws about 5 Amps of
idle current, an unacceptable loss that will require about 3 generator hours
per day to make up. (5 Amps x 24 = 240 Amp/hours per day.)
It is interesting to note that the Idle Current specification has been
conveniently omitted on every true sinewave inverter data sheet we have
seen!
SMART IDEAS: Since all inventors give off some heat it is a good idea to
mount them indoors so you can us this residual heat to warm up your home if
you live in cooler climate areas.
Surprisingly, many inverters (both sinewave and MSW) do not accommodate
bi-directional power flow. This is clearly an egregious design faux pas that
seriously limits the types of loads they can run.
The MSW inverter uses a direct 60 Hertz waveform synthesis that properly
allows bi-directional power flow. This is one of the many reasons that our
MSW inverters run loads that fail to run on many competing true sinewave
inverters!
'Nuff said?
Allan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Windy Dankoff, Dankoff Solar" <windy at dankoffsolar.com>
> Wrenches,
>
> anybody know anything about this company or product?
>
> http://www.hydrogenappliances.com/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 12:37:40 -0700
From: "Allan Sindelar" <allan at positiveenergysolar.com>
Subject: Re: SW Inverter firmware upgrade [RE-wrenches]
My two cents' worth on this...
Pagan was a bright star during a very dark time for Xantrex. She always kept
her word with us, including reimbursement for a couple of added GTIs because
of the UL-loss-of-listing ****up.
Xantrex has been struggling with "intellectual capital flight" for several
years now. I think that lots of large and small details get dropped each
time yet another capable person jumps ship.
I have one situation--a SW+ unit that was promised by Ezra & Pagan nearly
three years ago in return for participation in a design/feedback workshop on
SW revisions--that went through six people total, including Lloyd Gomm, and
finally was recently completed by Ray Barbee.
Yes, I gently kept rattling their cage, but to their credit, they came
through with the unit as promised. I could have been told that "the person
who made that promise to you has left, and I'm not authorized to yadda,
yadda"... I have a sense that it was a point of pride that they kept their
word, so credit given where credit due.
And of course, if they had blown me off, you would all have heard about it
here, loudly.
Allan at Positive Energy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Welch" <michael.welch at homepower.com>
> >Wrenches,
> >
> >I did firmware swap outs on two SW4024 last December and was promised
> >compensation by the since departed "dealer go between" Pagan. That never
> >happened, she left Xantrax and then someone else promised my
compensation.
> >Nothing.
>
> I don't want to take this personally....but I am. Despite this message of
"fear, uncertainty, and doubt" I am offering Wrenches my personal assurance
that we will (and are) pay installers to do this work. I setup this program
and had our sr. management team agree to the budget. When we ship the SW
chip set kit (for this program) it includes an installer compensation form.
Simply send the form to us and we will issue a check.
>
> Lloyd Gomm
> Director, Marketing
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 19:57:34 +0000
From: Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power <cfreitas at outbackpower.com>
Subject: RE: Hornet wind turbine?
Here is one of my favorite parts of the Hornet/Hydrogen appliance
website:
>Never work on a wind turbine on a windy day.
>NOTE: WIND TURBINES SHOULD BE LOWERED IN STORMS
Hummm...
Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
cfreitas @ outbackpower.com
www.outbackpower.com
Arlington WA USA
Tel 360 435 6030
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 12:14:54 -0800
From: "Eric Smiley" <Eric_Smiley at bcit.ca>
Subject: Re: Battery Life in Grid-Tie Systems [RE-wrenches]
>can you expect a greater life expectancy from a battery (sealed or
flooded) >when it is in grid-tied mode verses stand alone mode?
It depends...
Different battery chemistries are optimized for float service or cycle
service (i.e. grid-tied or stand-alone) The difference is in the plate
alloys used to strengthen the lead -- which are usually antimony or
calcium, but tin, cadmium, selenium, aluminum, arsenic, tellurium and
silver also show up.
In float duty battery life time is dictated by internal corrosion which
depends on battery temperature. The corrosion rate approximately doubles
for every 10 degree C rise above the rating temperature which is usually
20 degrees C. Low-antimony or calcium alloys give longer float life.
Generally, sealed batteries don't have any antimony since gassing and
water loss are one of the disadvantages of this type of alloy.
Corrosion of the positive plate is the main life time limitation in
float service. Tubular plates are also used to extend battery life. Only
the postive plate is tubular and corrosion of the positive plate is
reduced in this format.
In cycle duty, battery life is determined by number and depth of each
cycle. The change from Lead or Lead Oxide to Lead Sulphate during each
cycle results in a volume change (lead sulphate is less dense) and this
will lead to eventual shedding of active material from the plates. High
antimony batteries have a better cycle life, especially for deep
discharges, but antimony dissolves into the electrolyte as the battery
ages (corrodes) and this leads to gassing, high water loss and
self-discharge.
Since stand-alone PV systems often have 5 or more days of autonomy they
don't usually cycle very deep and high antimony content is not very
useful. So most "Solar batteries" are low-antimony.
Thus the main choice is between low-antimony or no-antimony (i.e.
lead-calcium, lead-calcium-tin, ...) design with low-antimony generally
giving better cycle life and lead-calcium generally giving better float
life.
Stratification, plate thickness and acid concentration are other factors
to consider.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 17:21:07 -0500
From: Four Winds <Roy at Four-winds-energy.com>
Subject: Hornet wind turbine (and others)
Good one Chris!
I'll go one step further and say that if you install the right wind
generator (or is that the wrong one??) that it will "automatically"
lower itself in any storm. Unfortunately the "raising itself" mode is
not so automatic and requires a very expensive "bio
interface"....otherwise known as your trusty RE dealer who loves to work
in the rain and snow!
Roy Butler
Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC
8902 Rt 46
Arkport, NY 14807
607-324-9747
www.four-winds-energy.com
Christopher Freitas --- OutBack Power wrote:
>>NOTE: WIND TURBINES SHOULD BE LOWERED IN STORMS
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Information Boulevard's Virus Scanning]
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 11:24:14 +1300
From: Bruce Geddes <b.geddes at clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: bad bad battery manu [RE-wrenches]
Hi all,
My limited understanding of lead acid batteries leads me to
think that if these batteries are failing after a short time from this cause
there is a charging problem. Windy's comments are correct.
> It is common for positive posts to bulge in batteries that have been
> overdischarged many times, or maintained in a very low state of
> charge for long periods. The cause is swelling of the positive
> plates. (They swell out laterally as well.)
>
> Normally, the battery is designed to accommodate this phenomenon to
> the point where the battery becomes useless, without danger of
> breaking the case.
>
> Windy
>
Positive plate expansion is caused by the oxidising reaction that takes
place on these plates and leads to the swelling in all directions. Long (?)
term over discharging and overcharging accelerate the process. I very much
doubt that this would be caused by a buildup of debris, if it built up that
much it would short out to the adjacent negative plate and deactivate the
cell rather than push the positive plate up. This debris is quite soft and
mushy.
I have seen broken cases on AGM cells from this but they were quite old and
the +ve grids were crumbling to pieces. It was the tight packing of this
type that caused the cases to crack as debris can not fall out. Most
flooded cells will have the cases bulging but not cracking.
Unless there is some very strange manufacturing fault I would be looking
very hard at the charge side and low battery disconnect settings.
Bruce Geddes
PowerOn
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:12:29 -0800
From: Joel Davidson <joeldavidson at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Federal Energy Bush [RE-wrenches]
Dear Allan,
Thank you for the summary.
Bush the Younger is the same as Bush the Elder.
Below is an editorial from today's Los Angeles Times.
Best regards,
Joel Davidson
An Energy Throwback
It's clear why Republican leaders in Congress kept their
national energy policy bill locked up in a conference
committee room for the last month, safe from review by
the public. Taxpayers, had they been given time to
digest the not-so-fine print in the pork-laden
legislation,
would have revolted.
This throwback bill promotes tried-and-failed coal, gas,
oil and nuclear industry programs at the expense of
conservation and renewable energy. A Congressional
Budget Office estimate puts the cost of tax credits, loan
guarantees and other giveaways at $31.1 billion —
though once all of the pork is weighed, critics say the
tab could top $100 billion.
The bill that cleared the House on Tuesday continued
the welcome prohibition against oil and natural gas
drilling in the Alaskan wilderness. But the rest of the
bill
has a frustrating business-as-usual feel. Automakers
won't be required to increase the fuel efficiency of new
vehicles, and the alternative power industry won't get a
needed boost from a rejected requirement that electric
utilities generate 10% of
their electricity from renewable energy sources. Attempts
to
prevent another
massive blackout by giving federal regulators the muscle
to
police the electric
generation and distribution industries were stymied by
power-rich states in the
Southeast and Northwest.
And it gets worse: Producers of methyl tertiary-butyl
ether,
or MTBE, the
gasoline additive that is fouling groundwater in
California
and other states, get
protection from environmental lawsuits aimed at forcing
them
to clean up their
mess. Cash-strapped cities and states would have to pick
up
the MTBE cleanup
costs, estimated at $29 billion. Not coincidentally, MTBE
manufacturing plants
are clustered in the backyards of Republican
representatives
who rode herd on
the bill.
Democrats didn't want to be left out of the feeding
frenzy;
in a bipartisan effort,
two farm-state senators, Tom Daschle (D-S.D.) and Charles
Grassley (R-Iowa),
won a costly ethanol subsidy that has the National Corn
Growers Assn. grinning.
How this goody-laden bill came into being is just as
ugly.
Republicans wrote the
1,100-page document behind closed doors and dropped it on
the
desks of
Democrats just 48 hours before the conference committee's
final meeting
Monday, in which Democrats attempting damage control lost
every significant
vote 7-6 along party lines.
The Bush administration, which earlier ordered Congress
to
hold the giveaways
to $8 billion, says it will accept the bill regardless of
the
cost. The full House
rubber-stamped the bill Tuesday, and Senate leaders are
confident they've stuffed
enough pork into it to secure needed votes from
Republicans
and Democrats
alike. Now it's up to senators with a conscience to
reject
this legislative
monument to waste or to muster and sustain a filibuster.
Allan Sindelar wrote:
> Below is a summary of the Energy Bill's major provisions prepared by
> the Majority (R) staff of the Energy Committee. Below that is a critique
of
> the bill done by the Minority (D) staff.
>
> Here are a few things the bill does not contain:
> 1) ANWR drilling authorization;
> 2) A mandatory increase in CAFÉ standards;
> 3) Abandoned Mine Land Program reauthorization;
> 4) Authorization for an inventory of offshore oil and gas reserves;
> 5) Language delaying the issuance of the Mercury MACT rule;
> 6) Natural gas price floor guarantees for the AK pipeline; and
> 7) A renewable portfolio standard for electricity generation.
>
<snip>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:46:47 -0800
From: Bob-O Schultze <econnect at snowcrest.net>
Subject: Re: SW Inverter firmware upgrade [RE-wrenches]
Allan,
I'm still waiting for mine, so is Bob Maynard, Richard Perez, and
probably just about every one else who was part of that focus group.
Regardless of what anyone at Xantrex says now, those units were
promised by their authorized agents in lieu of compensation for our
inputs and Xantrex is liable for them.
It's very hard to say just what is going on at Xantrex right now.
They seem to be back to making incredibly desperate and
counter-productive decisions lately. (Ray Barbee excepted)
My company is right smack in the middle of one of those beauties
right now. It is a VERY serious matter. Hopefully, they will see the
light and make it right. Otherwise, y'all will read all about it.
Best, Bob-O
>I have one situation--a SW+ unit that was promised by Ezra & Pagan nearly
>three years ago in return for participation in a design/feedback workshop
on
>SW revisions--that went through six people total, including Lloyd Gomm, and
>finally was recently completed by Ray Barbee.
>
>Yes, I gently kept rattling their cage, but to their credit, they came
>through with the unit as promised. I could have been told that "the person
>who made that promise to you has left, and I'm not authorized to yadda,
>yadda"... I have a sense that it was a point of pride that they kept their
>word, so credit given where credit due.
>
>And of course, if they had blown me off, you would all have heard about it
>here, loudly.
>
>Allan at Positive Energy
--
Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection
PO Box 203, Hornbrook, CA 96044
800.945.7587 or 530.475.3402
fax 530-475-3401
www.electronconnection.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 16:19:03 +1300
From: Carl Emerson <freepower at freepower.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Battery Life in Grid-Tie Systems [RE-wrenches]
Hi there,
Following on from the original question...
I just checked a bank of Trojan L16's that have been in service on a
grid-tie installation for two years.
They have hydrocaps and have never needed watering.
I have instructed the client to disconnect the grid for a day every few
months to give the bank something to do and thereby extend the life of
the bank.
The question I have is will the bank which is 99% in float mode require
equalization as well as regular cycling ??
Your thoughts...
Carl Emerson
Free Power Ltd.
Auckland. NZ
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 20:35:44 -0700
From: "Allan Sindelar" <allan at positiveenergysolar.com>
Subject: Request for Materials for HP Financing Article
Fellow RE folks,
For as long as we-end users, installing dealers, and Home Power-have been
working to encourage the use of renewable energy, obtaining financing has
remained a barrier in many instances. Mortgages for off-grid homes have been
notoriously difficult to obtain, and financing options for system upgrades
have been unavailable to all but the people who don't need financing. Now we
also have need for financing for grid-tied systems on existing homes.
Recently I refinanced our family's off-grid home near Santa Fe, New Mexico.
I worked with one of several local private mortgage brokers who market to
off-grid as well as mainstream homeowners. I have talked with this broker
about collaborating on a proposed Home Power article about financing of
home-scale renewable energy. I envision an article that is an overview of
the various ways to find the money for RE projects. The broker would focus
on how the lending process works, how off-grid and other types of atypical
properties are handled, how to find and work with a lender, etc.
His first cut at a focus for the article is as follows: Will major lenders
finance "off grid" homes? Yes, if ... That's the big "if." Ultimately,
lenders care only about a borrower's ability and willingness to repay a loan
and in the security of the collateral offered. Several loan elements must
come together for the loan to be acceptable. Borrowers can do much to
improve the likelihood of loan acceptance. This article will form a how-to
guide for borrowers seeking financing for their off-grid home. Whether
building, buying, or refinancing, readers will find this article to be
informative and actionable.
I have also been aware of two options for financing PV systems themselves,
as distinct from mortgage financing. This would serve, for example,
homeowners who want to install a grid-tied PV system on their home. One
option is the financing program that Xantrex has developed for their
Certified Dealers. The other option is the Permaculture Credit Union (PCU),
a new member-owned, not-for-profit financial institution that is founded on
the basic permaculture principles. The PCU sees its role as being a
financial resource for fostering all types of sustainability, including
renewable energy, energy efficiency, water catchment, fuel-efficient cars,
and the like. Already, two of our clients have financed grid-tied systems
through the PCU. (In the interest of full disclosure, I am a volunteer
member of the PCU Board of Directors).
Home Power has responded with encouragement. I am looking for information
about financing options and resources of all kinds that you may know about,
anecdotes, success and horror stories, and anything related that would help
the article to be as comprehensive as possible. In particular, I could use
more grid-tied resources, as we're not in a state with incentives. We'll
stick to the U.S., I think.
Please reply offlist to allan at positiveenergysolar.com. Thank you.
Allan
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 20:58:07 -0700
From: "Allan Sindelar" <allan at positiveenergysolar.com>
Cc: <Lloyd.Gomm at Xantrex.com>
Subject: Re: SW Inverter firmware upgrade [RE-wrenches]
Bob-O,
I didn't know what their agreement was with anyone else, I'm afraid. They
never offered me anything official like "We'll give you an inverter to meet
in this hotel room". Mine was never formal--I just asked for a beta unit,
and kept asking and reminding and bugging 'em.
And now I'm confused--both Richard and Bob e-mailed me around January '02
about their beta units. Richard wrote "No problems with the new HF Trace so
far. Joe had to enlarge two of the conduit holes to take 3/4 inch, but other
than that installation was straightforward. The programming is far easier.
Before we plugged anything important into the HF, we vetted it with the
Fluke 43. It actually looks better than the SW--tighter Vrms regulation and
slightly better THD. Ezra said it should have been the same, but it looks
better on our instruments here." Were these just vaporware?
Allan @+E
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob-O Schultze, Electron Connection" <econnect at snowcrest.net>
To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 7:46 PM
Subject: Re: SW Inverter firmware upgrade [RE-wrenches]
> Allan,
> I'm still waiting for mine, so is Bob Maynard, Richard Perez, and
> probably just about every one else who was part of that focus group.
> Regardless of what anyone at Xantrex says now, those units were
> promised by their authorized agents in lieu of compensation for our
> inputs and Xantrex is liable for them.
> >I have one situation--a SW+ unit that was promised by Ezra & Pagan nearly
> >three years ago in return for participation in a design/feedback workshop
on
> >SW revisions--that went through six people total, including Lloyd Gomm,
and
> >finally was recently completed by Ray Barbee.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 21:02:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Darryl Thayer <daryl_solar at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Battery Life in Grid-Tie Systems [RE-wrenches]
I think the electrolite stratification is still
possible so the batteries should be equalized. Also
the different self discharge rates will leave some
cells at a deeper discharge charge than others and may
not get recharged fully, needing equalization.
--- "Carl Emerson, Free Power Ltd."
<freepower at freepower.co.nz> wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> Following on from the original question...
>
> I just checked a bank of Trojan L16's that have been
> in service on a
> grid-tie installation for two years.
>
> They have hydrocaps and have never needed watering.
>
> I have instructed the client to disconnect the grid
> for a day every few
> months to give the bank something to do and thereby
> extend the life of
> the bank.
>
> The question I have is will the bank which is 99% in
> float mode require
> equalization as well as regular cycling ??
>
> Your thoughts...
>
>
> Carl Emerson
> Free Power Ltd.
> Auckland. NZ
>
> - - - -
> To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com
>
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>
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Check out participant bios: www.mrsharkey.com/wrenches/index.html
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End of RE-wrenches at topica.com digest, issue 1291
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