NABCEP & ISP [RE-wrenches]

[Matt Lafferty]

To all, no matter what "side" you think you are on:

I must endorse Bills comments below, except the typo (C'mon Bill.....Just
because you're spittin' mad right now doesn't mean you have to drop the
professionalism....lol).

The opposition in Utilities and Oil Companies being easier to deal with than
our own Brothers and Sisters is especially tough to swallow.  I'm no
swallower, by the way, in case anybody was wondering....lol.  Lighten up!
Open your minds.  I won't speak for anyone but myself, but I have not
witnessed or heard of anybody pushing for mandatory membership or
certification.  Not once, in any venue.  Plain and simple.

Bill's committment to continue defending the certification process because,
at least he believes, "it is the right thing to do", is to be respected and
supported in its motive at least.  I, too, will fight for anything I believe
in, if I truly believe it is the right thing to do.  I hope every single one
of us is of the same mind and respects others who do so.

How can we call ourselves Americans, or Aussies, or New Zealanders, or
Canucks, or Brits, or whatever else we call ourselves if we don't?  (Sorry
if I left anybody off the list there.)

But wait, there's more (I know, there always is with me...sorry.  Just be
thankful you've never had to hear me talk.....)

I don't have the long-term relationship with Mark Fitzgerald that Bill does,
but I can attest to Mark's integrity and motives.  I have never seen
anything about his dealings or demeanor that deserves anything less.  Nor
have I ever heard of any.  (I hope everybody here realizes that I am a
skeptical and critical kinda guy.  Nobody gets a free pass and I'm ALWAYS
looking.)

Bill didn't mention, perhaps to keep it short, perhaps 'cause he's tired of
seeing the seemingly endless, in many cases,
un-productive-non-coming-up-with-solutions-neener-neener-neener-I-don't-need
-to-be-told-what-to-do-You-can't-make-me-I-don't-wanna conversation about
all this  (I think most of us are.), that Mark has devoted years of his life
to bettering the lives and futures of many around the world, mostly where
there's no money, in what we call "the third world" and under very difficult
circumstances.  I had no idea his health related challenges.  What is there
in that that shouldn't inspire us?  Godspeed, Mark!

How many of us can claim that?  We may have spent years of our lives trying
to better the world by slaving away in this thing we call RE, for the best
of intentions, but to truly be self-less about it???  Thank you, Mark, on
behalf of those you have helped.

I ask this:  Why is it that the good ol' US is so far behind in the
integration and development of PV than so many other places?  I would argue
that it's because, as a nation, on a globally compared basis, we are fat,
lazy and spoiled by the artificially cheap energy that we have.  We think
that we are "better", know more, immune.  Not all of the "conspiracy
theories" are off-base.  I think those of us reading this are smart enough
to know that.  That doesn't mean we're stupid as individuals, rather, we
have become accustomed to the "freedoms" we have enjoyed to date.  Those
freedoms are eroding.  (I'm not trying to get political here, on topic only)
We must fight the battles worth fighting, for the right reasons, and not let
our perspectives be clouded by media, goobment, and all the crap we are
bombarded with every day.  We will need to accept certain conditions if we
are to survive.  I know for a fact that Utilities, Goobment, and God Only
Knows Who Else, monitor this list.  They are laughing as we speak  Divide
and Conquer!  DIVIDE AND CONQUER!

I urge all to read John Perlin's book, From Space to Earth, it's relevant,
and good by the way.  There are even pictures.  It's a good history
compilation.  Sort of makes me wish my copy was signed.  My girlfriend's
copy is.  Maybe I'll switch with her when she's not looking....(She turned
me on to it by the way)  Kudos John, wherever you are.

Some of the experiences related there describe shortcomings in the attempt
to deploy PV in these areas for "human necessity" purposes.  Like water!
Some of those experiences had subsidies, some did not.  Suffice it to say
that they weren't all successful.

Various factors played into each.  It's sad but true.  When "free money" is
involved, greed takes over.  Snakes and Welfare Rats crawl from wherever it
is they exist to drain and take it away from those trying to do things
right.  This is the case the world over.  It hurts us all.

You see, their motive is different.  While you're busy trying to make an
honest living, doing the right thing, they are scheming to figure out how
they can "get some" without any effort.  Subsidies are a form of "free
money".  Like I said in an earlier post, we need the money and the time "to
get there".  This comes with a double-edged sword attached, as I described
in that post.  Understand the implications.  Understand the needs of "both
sides".

I have seen some introspective and good thoughts posted on this topic
(NABCEP....Certification....In case we've forgotten).  I must say that I
don't know of anybody on this list that may be perceived as "Pro-NABCEP"
that hasn't considered each of these points and incorporated them into their
efforts to arrive at and support a responsible, flexible, NON-MANDATORY,
certification process.  The resources are limited right now.  Only so many
battles can be fought on so many fronts at any given time, by any of us.
Why not pick battles worth fighting?

My observation has revealed an honest, dedicated effort to come up with a
process that includes all these concerns.  Without exception, the issues
raised here recently have been incorporated into their development process.
That doesn't mean we shouldn't be paying attention, I just ask that we pay
attention with an open mind to "really paying attnetion".

If you haven't looked at and read the most recent versions of things like
the CEC, NYSERDA, NABCEP, etc. stuff, how can you honestly fight about it?

It is only through knowledge that you can pick which "battles to fight".  If
the right battle to fight is the proposed CEC guidelines, fight it.  Not
here, at the CEC.  If it's NYSERDA, fight it there. . . . . . .If it's
NABCEP, that's the place to go fight.  I don't think it is NABCEP.  To be
honest with you, my concern / fear is that the manufacturers have gotten
onboard with NABCEP with the hope that they will be able to water it down,
for commercial reasons.  (Hey, Travis, can I borrow your asbestos
impregnated flame shields???)  I've got my four eyes on that....

There is no single answer.  Debate, conversation and thought-out intelligent
discussion is necessary to achieve the most balanced, well-rounded and "at
least we've honestly attempted to consider and incorporate the needs of as
many people as possible" answer.  Isn't that what democracy is about?  Isn't
that the real reason we treasure living where we do?  I know, we all feel
like our voices aren't heard and like it's our right to say what we think
about it.  Feel free.  I do.  I encourage you to do so, as well.  I only ask
that we find out the facts and consider them before we spout off for the
sake of "it's my right to do so".

None of us know the future.  We know the past.  "Those who do not learn from
history are condemned to repeat it" comes to mind.

I'm committed to learning.  I would like to have a future, for myself and my
daughter.

How about you?

Nearing Sunset, but still Praying for Sun.  I think Marco has it now,

-Matt Lafferty
pvpro at attbi.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Brooks" <billb at endecon.com>
To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 1:47 PM
Subject: Re: NABCEP [RE-wrenches]


> Smitty,
>
> You may not like my response, but read it and we can finish the discussion
> off list if you want to pursue it. I prefer folks that ask questions to
> learn and adjust their opinions based on new information. These questions
> appear to be leading and an attempt to cause dissention rather than
> contributing to a better understanding of the situation.
>
> NABCEP has no official relationships with anyone at the time. They have
some
> small contracts with USDOE, NYSERDA, and possibly a few others--I'm sure
you
> could find out if you like. NABCEP is a board of directors and committees
as
> I stated. ISP was certainly the catalyst in getting the idea of NABCEP off
> the ground.
>
> ISP, as you very well know, is Mark Fitzgerald. I have known Mark for
about
> four years now. I was very skeptical of the some of the ideas about a
> certification process, but I did my homework and came to the realization
> that it was a good thing for some markets in PV--particularly California.
> Since I have been the most active trainer in California related to the CEC
> Buydown program, I agreed to serve on his board as the North American
> representative--that was about three years ago.
>
> I have come to respect Mark and his tireless work on this subject in the
> face of little or no funding. About two years ago he was diagnosed with
> cancer--and yet he continued to work tirelessly in the face of huge
> opposition. I can vouch from my personal experience working with him, that
> this is something he is deeply committed to on a personal level, and is
> unconcerned about fame and fortune related to the success (or abuse) of
the
> certification process.
>
> I'm sure he wouldn't want me to talk about him personally, but it totally
> infuriates me that people like you take pot shots at him and his
> organization accusing him either directly or through insinuation that he
has
> a hidden agenda. Mark is committed to the improvement of the PV industry
and
> you can choose to believe that or not. His level of commitment in the face
> of huge health issues puts all of us to shame. You may not agree with his
> means, but many many people have come to agree with many of his ideas.
>
> I'm sure you are equally committed to this industry and obviously have a
> different viewpoint. I have no problem with asking the tough questions and
> playing devil's advocate to some extent, but it often crosses the line and
> becomes simply mean and vindictive. I believe we are on the same team.
Many
> of the concerns and issues you have expressed have been seriously
considered
> and things have been adjusted in the process. I would have preferred to
make
> the adjustments under more amenable circumstances rather than threats.
>
> Why is it that the opposition in utility companies and oil companies are
> often easier to get along with than our own brothers and sisters in the PV
> industry? I will continue to work toward credentialing of PV installers
and
> to make life hell for bad installers. Education, inspections,
> certifications, accountability are all part of making life hell for bad
> installers. Right now, our industry is one of the "easy money" industries
> for fly-by-nights. That needs to change.
>
> I'm tired of having to continue to defend the certification process, but
> since it is the right thing to do, I will continue. Even you may come to
> agree with me over the next decade--time will tell.
>
> Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
>
> Bill.
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Smitty [mailto:smitty at aaasolar.com]
> Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 10:57 AM
> To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
> Subject: SPAM: Re: NABCEP [RE-wrenches]
>
>
> Hi Bill. You said "ask", so I will. What is the Institute of Sustainable
> Power's
> relationship to the NABCEP, the certification program, and how long have
you
> been on it's board of directors? Respectfully, Smitty.
>
> Bill Brooks wrote:
>
> > Jeff,
> >
> > If you don't know what NABCEP "privately" wants, just ask the board
> members.
> > You are giving the impression that it is some faceless monster that you
> have
> > to guess about the intentions. NABCEP is the board of directors and the
> > subcommittees under that board--nothing more. I serve on the PV
Technical
> > committee with Alan Sindelar and several others. Don Loweburg, Bob-O
> Shultz,
> > and Ezra Auerbach serve on the board. There is no private agenda. Talk
> with
> > the board members and get their opinions if you really want to know what
> > NABCEP is thinking.
> >
> > If you want to believe that there is a hidden agenda, no one can stop
you
> > from doing so. Conspiracy theories abound--and will continue as long as
> > folks want to believe them.
> >
> > NYSERDA has their own agenda. They have a small program and they are
> looking
> > for ways to help ensure success with their limited funds. They have the
> > gold--they make the rules. If they feel that this certification will
> provide
> > an understanding as to whether someone is competitent--that is their
> > business. I'm sure representatives of the board have made presentations
> > about NABCEP, but that does not mean that there is a conspiracy to
mandate
> > NABCEP. If NYSERDA wants to do that, it is within their rights. In their
> > case it will be phased in over time and if it causes problems in the
> > program, they can change the program and fix the problems.
> >
> > The biggest negative about NYSERDA requiring NABCEP eventually is that
the
> > nay-sayers will use this as an example of how NABCEP is subverting the
PV
> > industry.
> >
> > As I said before, the best way to get support for NABCEP is to do
nothing,
> > just like we have done in California, and wait until it is too late.
> > Pandora's box is now open in California, and it is really hard to cram
all
> > the bad stuff back in the box. When I first moved to California nearly
> five
> > years ago to teach installers and inspectors, nobody wanted to hear
about
> > certifying installers. Now many are wondering why we didn't do it
earlier
> > because a lot of damage has been done. These are natural reactionary
> > responses. I prefer planning for the future rather than reacting to
> problems
> > that could have been avoided.
> >
> > Bill.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jeffery Wolfe, Global Resource Options
> > [mailto:jeff at globalresourceoptions.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 10:14 AM
> > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
> > Subject: RE: NABCEP [RE-wrenches]
> >
> > Bill,
> >
> > Maybe blown out of proportion, maybe not. NYSERDA (NY's equivalent, sort
> of,
> > to CEC) is heading toward a requirement that to get a rebate, the system
> >
> > ***snip****

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