Installation details [RE-wrenches]

[matthew tritt]

Foghorn,

I was referring to the series of photos sent to the list by Graham the other
day. In one of them, there is clearly a roll of jacketed ground wire feeding
into an open trench. The language for UFER grounds says you're not supposed
to do this, but rather connect to rebar above grade, because of the problem
with increasing resistance to ground over time if copper is in contact with
concrete, instead of steel.

Matt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Foghorn" <dcaster1 at earthlink.net>
To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 11:43 AM
Subject: Re: Installation details [RE-wrenches]


>    Matthew, I cannot find the pictures you refer to. I do know that
article
> 250.62 of the NEC states: "The grounding electrode conductor shall be made
of
> copper, aluminum, or copper-clad aluminum. The material selected shall be
> resistant to any corrosive condition existing at the installation or shall
be
> solid or stranded, insulated, covered, or bare." As to point of
connection,
> article 250.68, Grounding Electrode Conductor and Bonding Jumper
Connection to
> Grounding Electrodes, has an exception: "An encased or buried connection
to a
> concrete-encased, driven, or buried grounding electrode shall not be
required to
> be accessable". (There are  connectors listed for direct burial). There
also
> seemed to be a question of using bare copper encased in concrete as an
> electrode. NEC article 250.52(A)(3) allows at least 6.0 m (20ft) of bare
copper
> conductor not smaller than 4 AWG to be used as an electrode. I am not
trying to
> come off as a know-it-all, I am presently studying for my inspectors
license and
> find myself in the book quite a bit these days. I welcome any questions as
they
> seem to help me study.
>   Foghorn
>
> matthew tritt wrote:
>
> > Foghorn,
> >
> > Would you say from the pictures that the installers have done the ground
> > incorrectly? It looks to me like they have. Aren't the ground
connections to
> > be made above grade, and shouldn't the grounding conductor be bare
copper?
> >
> > Matt
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Foghorn" <dcaster1 at earthlink.net>
> > To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
> > Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 9:05 AM
> > Subject: Re: Installation details [RE-wrenches]
> >
> >    Failure to study and understand thoroughly the National Electric Code
is
> > the
> > single most disturbing aspect of any electrical installation done by
> > unqualified
> > personnel. This is why "Union Types" have issues with the PV industry
not
> > becoming licensed in some manner. NEC article 110.26, Spaces about
> > electrical
> > equipment, contains a table for working spaces, which states: "Concrete,
> > brick,
> > or tile walls shall be considered as grounded. Article 250.64 (A)
states:
> > "Bare
> > aluminum or copper-clad aluminum grounding conductors shall not be used
> > where in
> > direct contact with masonry or the earth or where subject to corrosive
> > conditions. Where used outside, aluminum or copper-clad aluminum
grounding
> > conductors shall not be terminated within 450 mm (18 in.)  of the
earth".
> > All
> > licensed electricians must know, and understand the NEC fully, in order
to
> > obtain their license and perform electrical work and are tested on that
> > knowledge before the license is issued. With this license comes the
legal
> > responsibility for any liability that arises. This is why it is
advisable to
> > at
> > least consult with an electrician before arbitrarily changing their
work.
> >
> >   Dennis D. Caster
> >
> > Tom Simko wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >     Since when is concrete conductive? Photo 6 in the below
installation
> > > detail shows a footer with a ground wire being filled with concrete.
While
> > > I'm NOT an electrician, I have been in construction all my life (so
far),
> > > and was always under the impression bare copper and concrete is a bad
> > > combination, something about the calcium chlorate in the concrete eats
the
> > > copper. I do know that any slab with copper water supply lines coming
up
> > > through it must have a buffer of some sort, usually a piece of Rubetex
or
> > > some other pipe insulation. By coincidence I just poured a footing 2
days
> > > ago, and the electrician had ran his ground (residential on grid
> > residential
> > > addition, no alternative energy involved) down my horizontal rebar in
the
> > > footing, where it would have wound up encapsulated in the concrete. I
> > > unwound it from the rebar and laid it in the dirt along the footing
form,
> > > and later backfilled over it, and mentioned doing so to the Sparky. He
> > said
> > > the inspector told him to do it that way. Huh? What am I missing here?
> > I'll
> > > be seeing the electrician tomorrow, back me up here or tell me where
I'm
> > > wrong!
> > >
> > > Tom Simko
> > > Skyline Solar
> > >
> > > >> Graham,
> > > >>
> > > >> I was to be the California installer for World Water, but somehow
got
> > > >> by-passed for a larger company of some kind. (I assume that's the
Locke
> > > >> connection?) It's actually all right with me, as they are
reportedly
> > > >> involved in "stealing" water from a river in Northern California,
for
> > > >> the
> > > >> purpose of selling it to Southern California. I've got problems
with
> > > >> this.
> > > >> (The parent company of World Water is doing this project.
> > > >>
> > > >> Their system includes, primarily, an inverter and an in-house
designed
> > > >> pump
> > > >> control and inter-face with utility power. The advantage to this
system
> > > >> is
> > > >> that it will run the pump load with PV and/or utility power, and
act as
> > > >> a
> > > >> net metered inter-connection. The advantage with this design is
that it
> > > >> can
> > > >> run pumps when the grid is down. I don't see why a Sunny Island and
> > > >> SunnyBoy
> > > >> system wouldn't accomplish the same thing.
> > > >> John, any thoughts?
> > > >>
> > > >> These people are very aggressive marketing-wise, and have some very

> > > >> powerful
> > > >> members on their board. They are very active in the third world in
> > > >> developing water sources using solar/utility power. I believe that
the
> > > >> World
> > > >> Bank is somehow involved. Something about all of it concerns me a
great
> > > >> deal, which is the growing trend to "privatize" water, especially
in
> > > >> under-developed countries.
> > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> From: "Graham Owen" <graham at solarexpert.com>
> > > >> To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
> > > >> Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 9:40 AM
> > > >> Subject: Installation details [RE-wrenches]
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>> I thought this website link was worth forwarding.  They have many
> > pages
> > > >>> of photo's and text detailing their PV current project.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> http://www.worldwater.com/locke/11-19-2002.htm
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Graham
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
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