How would you handle this situation? [RE-wrenches]

Joel Davidson joeldavidson at earthlink.net
Thu Apr 18 14:48:29 PDT 2002


The general public would benefit from Consumer Reports type comparative testing
using standardized test procedures. I commend you and others for working toward
this goal. In the meantime, Endecon should send Xantrex and the other inverter
manufactures a quotation for performance testing. Let's see who steps up to the
plate. I would find Endecon test results useful.

Chuck Whitaker wrote:

> But you STILL won't be able to compare the results from Xantrex with those
> from AEI, SMA, etc. if they don't do the same test.  I can guarantee, left
> to their own devices, they will test (or have tests performed by a 3rd
> party, or two or 5!) in a way that presents their product in the most
> favorable light.  In my mind, the procedure is more important right now than
> who performs it...
>
> btw - since the Wrenches gatekeeper has determined that I am not qualified
> to be on their list, would you please post this for me.
>
> Thanks
>
> Chuck Whitaker
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Joel Davidson [mailto:joeldavidson at earthlink.net]
> > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 1:19 PM
> > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
> > Cc: Ward Bower; Jim Dunlop; John Wiles; Jeff Newmiller; Chuck Whitaker
> > Subject: Re: How would you handle this situation? [RE-wrenches]
> >
> >
> > Bill and all,
> > This is a good idea for the long-term, but we need objective
> > performance testing
> > right now. I could buy equipment with confidence if manufacturers provided
> > performance tests results from independent organizations like
> > Endecon, FSEC,
> > NOSE, ASU, Sandia, Terra Labs, Wylie Labs, etc. For example,
> > Xantrex could hire
> > two independent companies to test their newly released XR2500 and post the
> > unedited results on the web to dispel rumors. The same goes for
> > AES, Vanner,
> > SMA, Heart, etc. Independent testing costs money, but the results
> > can be a great
> > marketing tool that has a greater impact full page color ads of clouds and
> > mountains and suns and children.
> >
> > Bill Brooks wrote:
> >
> > > Wrenches,
> > >
> > > This is a very interesting thread, but I think there is a
> > better way to deal
> > > with this very large problem. My strong feeling is that we need
> > independent
> > > standards for performance and qualifications of inverters. This group of
> > > standards needs to cover many issues. From a performance point of view,
> > > there is currently no standard for how to perform efficiency tests on
> > > inverters or how to test the effectiveness of maximum power
> > point tracking
> > > on the inverter.
> > >
> > > Incidentally, I have mentioned briefly in the past about a
> > project we are
> > > getting ready to start with the California Energy Commission.
> > It will be the
> > > first step in establishing consumer guidelines for products and
> > systems in
> > > the PV world. The idea is to use a format similar to Consumer Reports to
> > > rate PV systems. The only way this is going to be successful is if the
> > > dealers, installers, and manufacturers embrace the process and
> > allow it to
> > > provide the benefit I think we all know it could provide.
> > >
> > > Right now we are playing a game of "things that suck" and "things that
> > > work", but I think this fundamentally misses the point. There
> > needs to be
> > > objective benchmark against which systems and inverters are
> > rated so that
> > > more of an apples-to-apples comparison can be made. The PV industry is
> > > running to recently introduced products far too quickly without enough
> > > information to truly make a good decision. Expecting everyone
> > to do their
> > > own testing is silly and will keep our industry in the dark ages.
> > >
> > > All products today have aspects of their performance that could
> > be improved.
> > > However, when one product clearly outperforms another we latch
> > onto it and
> > > don't focus on how to improve all the competing products. We settle for
> > > non-optimal performance because we have never seen excellent
> > performance.
> > >
> > > With the support of all the PV industry we hope to make a difference by
> > > setting up some of these benchmarks that will serve the PV
> > world for decades
> > > to come. Wish us luck and we will be calling on the Wrenches
> > for feedback to
> > > make this process as effective as it can be.
> > >
> > > Bill.
> > >
> > > Bill Brooks
> > > Endecon Engineering
> > >
> > > Office:
> > > 873 Kells Circle
> > > Vacaville, CA 95688
> > > 707-332-0761 (Voice)
> > > 707-451-7739 (Fax)
> > > billb at endecon.com (email)
> > >
> > > Head Office:
> > > 347 Norris Court
> > > San Ramon, CA 94583
> > > 925-552-1330 (Voice)
> > > 925-552-1333 (Fax)
> > > www.endecon.com
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: jay peltz [mailto:jay at asis.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 7:42 AM
> > > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
> > > Subject: Re: How would you handle this situation? [RE-wrenches]
> > >
> > > Joel,
> > >
> > > One comment.  Here on this site, I would prefer that you mention what
> > > equipment.  Its how I keep up as to whats hot and whats not.
> > >
> > > thanks,
> > >
> > > jay
> > >
> > > peltz power
> > >
> > > Joel Davidson wrote:
> > >
> > > > One year ago, a customer bought 2 line-tie inverters. The
> > customer is a
> > > > knowledgeable engineer and was unhappy with the inverters' performance
> > > > so he got a different brand inverter to compare performance. The other
> > > > brand performs much better. The customer and I are convinced
> > that the 2
> > > > inverters he bought have design flaws and can not perform to spec. The
> > > > customer wants to return the inverters for a full refund. How
> > would you
> > > > handle this situation?
> > > >
> > > Matt Lafferty wrote:
> > >
> > > > Joel / Wrenches:
> > > >
> > > > First of all, Joel, you are on the right track in providing "after the
> > > sale"
> > > > service.  This mirrors the last 1-1/2 + years we have spent
> > dealing with a
> > > > similar issue.  We aren't done with it yet.  May go on for a very long
> > > time,
> > > > in fact.  Be glad you only have the one Customer.  We have
> > about 50, not
> > > to
> > > > mention the ones we own.
> > > >
> > > > I personally believe in maintaining integrity in backing up
> > our projects,
> > > > even when the issue isn't related to something we "did wrong".  The
> > > goodwill
> > > > generated is priceless, even when the Customers are screaming
> > with venom!
> > > >
> > > > As far as returning the inverters, I believe the manufacturer
> > should pick
> > > up
> > > > the tab &, as you suggest, do the testing.  A full credit to the
> > > > distributors is in order if the testing proves the inverters cannot
> > > perform
> > > > as advertised.
> > > >
> > > > Regarding "peak power":  This is the tree manufacturers hide
> > behind.  Some
> > > > just hide behind it more than others.  We all know that PV
> > generates in
> > > > "real time" according to all the variables existing at that
> > time.  In a
> > > lab,
> > > > at STC or other favorable conditions, the inverter may
> > produce the 2500
> > > > Watts as advertised.  There has to be a "Standard Test Condition" for
> > > rating
> > > > purposes or else there would be no way to benchmark performance and
> > > ratings.
> > > > If, under their tests, the results honestly show the inverter
> > delivers and
> > > > won't honor the refund request, then you have another thing to think
> > > about.
> > > > How to satisfy your customer, without bankrupting yourself,
> > if he can be
> > > > satisfied at this point.
> > > >
> > > > The best I can offer at this moment is this:  Consider this
> > experience in
> > > > its entirety in the future.  What inverter are you going to select or,
> > > just
> > > > as importantly, NOT select for this type of application in the future?
> > > (Of
> > > > course we are all dying to know!!! ;-) )  And, Don't Quit on
> > Commitment to
> > > > Integrity!
> > > >
> > > > -Matt Lafferty
> > > > pvpro at attbi.com
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Joel Davidson"
> > > > Subject: Re: How would you handle this situation? [RE-wrenches]
> > > >
> > > > > 1) The customer chose the inverters and I agreed with his choice.
> > > > > 2) The customer bought the 2nd inverter to expand his PV system. I
> > > bought
> > > > the
> > > > > 2nd inverter from another distributor because the 1st
> > distributor could
> > > > not give
> > > > > a delivery date and the 2nd distributor had an inverter in stock.
> > > > > 3) Yesterday, both distributors contacted the manufacturer
> > and we await
> > > a
> > > > > response.
> > > > >
> > > > > Back to the original question, but this time put yourself in this
> > > > customer's
> > > > > place.
> > > > >
> > > > > You buy an inverter that is specified to deliver 2500 watts. The
> > > inverter
> > > > never
> > > > > delivers over 2300 watts of power and has other problems
> > that adversely
> > > > affect
> > > > > energy production. You visit another site with the same
> > inverter and see
> > > > the
> > > > > same under-performance and hear about the same other problems. You
> > > > substitute
> > > > > another brand 2500 watt inverter and the 2nd inverter delivers 2500
> > > watts.
> > > > You
> > > > > re-test the 1st inverter with 32 each 120 watt PV modules,
> > but it still
> > > > does not
> > > > > deliver over 2300 watts. You conclude that the inverter can
> > not perform
> > > as
> > > > > specified. The inverter is under warranty so you call the
> > manufacturer.
> > > > "They
> > > > > said they changed the spec and hadn't even publish or put it online
> > > > yet...when I
> > > > > mentioned that my unit would never run over 2300 watts
> > (this is when I
> > > > purposely
> > > > > feed 32 panels into it to prove the unit wasn't running at
> > spec) they
> > > > claimed
> > > > > 2500 was "peak" power what ever that means" (customer's
> > exact words).
> > > > >
> > > > > If I were the manufacturer, this is how I would resolve
> > this situation.
> > > > Send the
> > > > > customer return shipping cartons, pay for the shipping and test the
> > > > inverters.
> > > > > If the inverters produce 2500 watts, return the inverters to the
> > > customer
> > > > with
> > > > > the test results. Charge the expense for 2-way shipping and
> > testing to
> > > > customer
> > > > > service. If the inverters do not produce 2500 watts, first
> > credit the
> > > > > distributors who will credit the retailer so the retailer
> > can refund the
> > > > > customer's money. Next, change the inverter specifications.
> > > > >
> > > > > What do you all think?
> > >
> > > - - - -
> > > To send a message: RE-wrenches at topica.com
> > >
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> > >
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> > >
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> > >
> >
> >
> >

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