How about some Guerilla "gas"? [RE-wrenches]

Lawrence Elliott larry at energyoutfitters.com
Sun May 5 16:15:59 PDT 2002


And Joel thank you for your thoughtful response.
One of the main things that makes this forum so valuable.
Although I think you missed my point.

The benefits of PV derived h2 far outweigh those from grid tie when
viewed from any angle disregarding  any personal bias's for or against
and your counterpoint fell far short in proving otherwise.




Joel wrote;
> Dear Lawrence,
>
> Thank you for your thoughtful response.
>
> The scientific method is observation, experimentation and analysis. A
good
> student reads the literature first and then performs experiments to
verify
> the information.
>

 Your very wrong on several points as my information is first hand and I
have been a very good student of hydrogen for several years.

You prove my point that battery EV's have no real market and never will
except for very small inner city vehicles when you mention the EV1.
Very few people could use such an impractical vehicle.
Two weeks ago I rode at 55 mph down I-80 in a bus carrying 40 other
people and we used only h2 and exhausted only pure H2O.
In a battery bus the same size the batteries would have weighed more
than the payload. How silly would that be.

What we are looking for is a large and almost universal change in how we
drive in addtition to how we transport the goods that make our daily
lives possible.
Otherwise we continue to simply make political statements or failed
"demo projects"

In transport we have the greatest pollution problem and in this area
batteries are not even in the equation.

I would challenge you to tell me what source of energy you would like to
see electrolysis used with since that IS the source of energy that will
power most if not all of our "real world vehicles in the near future"
Since you could not challenge me in any way concerning the benefits of
h2 and the shortcomings of batteries I assume you simply have a bias
toward h2.
This is true of many in the renewables industry and it still amazes and
confuses me.
The statement "I have a real problem in turning PV power into gases"
proves it.
It would seem that you feel better transforming chemicals in heavy and
innefficient batteries with all of their toxic shortcomings.


 Hydrogen is
> being hyped by the same people who gave you the gasoline automobile
and
> nuclear power plants so be aware.


Here you could not be more wrong.

I have attended many many technical forums in many parts of the world
where h2 is the center of attraction and I have yet to be suspicious of
their motives.
I would hope that the people who gave us the gasoline engine and nuclear
power plants were some of the same giving us h2 since they have the
resources to make PV and Renewable h2 a commercial reality.


> petroleum and automobile industries to make non-polluting hydrogen
cars
> soon. On the other hand, maybe you'd better hold your breath because
Detroit
> will keep making smog-burners until it is forced to change.

Here you are wrong again.

At the present time I can call suppliers and have tanks,regulators and
hydrogen fuel injectors delivered to my door and I can more easily
convert most cars over to h2 than I could batteries and believe me I
have done both.
If we all demanded h2 cars they would be on showroom floors faster than
you could say " Jack Robinson"
That also goes for EV's using batteries but you will never see this
demand.
That is the beauty of an enlightened capitalist system.
If we just sit and wait for "others" to create this market we deserve
being fed shit and kept in the dark like mushrooms.

The primary shortcoming in h2 conversion is cost and this is due
primarily to lack of "economy of scale".
If we continue to view h2 with disdain this will never change.

Ignoring the huge benefits of h2 derived from Renewables and complaining
about the oil companies is like complaining about fast food as we
consume a Big Mac. And putting up grid interties and feeling we are
"doing our part" is just "feel goodism"

I still hold to my original contention that trying to have real impacts
on our oil addiction ( and that is far more important than "green grid
power:) using grid tied PV is "pissing in the ocean".

I will at this time make a prediction based on pure logic.physics, and
common sense.
Hydrogen will be our main source of stored energy in a few years and
PV's will supply allot of it using electrolysis.
To reject h2 because of personal bias or lack of understanding will
simply keep PV's in the realm of "rich mans toys" for some time to come.

Joel I don't want to sound harsh or argumentative but I love nothing
more than a good debate.

I now throw down the gaunlet to you or anyone who wishes to make a stand
in favor of PV's on the grid versus PV's for h2 production based solely
on "cost benefit or any other way you want.
Or better yet try making an argument against the use of h2 from any
source based on something besides bias and in light of what the
alternative is.
You will all go down in flames ;-)

And just think of this.
We get far greater benefits from using a more efficient method of energy
production (electrolysis) than we get from grid tie and we don't have to
kiss the utiliies ass to get "approval from the great Utility Kings" to
hook up.
Hydrogen production using PV is "true off the grid"
Don't worry you will all eventually come around and wonder why you
questioned h2's use.

Larry Elliott

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