How would you handle this situation? [RE-wrenches]

[Bill Brooks]

Joel,

The procedure is more important than the outfit that performs the test. It
has to be clear and understandable what the test means--and everyone does it
the same way. Only then does an independent third party test help the
process.

We have a good idea of what those test procedures should look like, but we
still need to finalize that process. In the interrim, some side-by-side
testing will be going on to test and validate the procedures and this will
help the progress toward a true testing standard that everyone can use.

Bill.

-----Original Message-----
From: Joel Davidson [mailto:joeldavidson at earthlink.net]
Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 1:19 PM
To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
Cc: Ward Bower; Jim Dunlop; John Wiles; Jeff Newmiller; Chuck Whitaker
Subject: Re: How would you handle this situation? [RE-wrenches]


Bill and all,
This is a good idea for the long-term, but we need objective performance
testing
right now. I could buy equipment with confidence if manufacturers provided
performance tests results from independent organizations like Endecon, FSEC,
NMSU, ASU, Sandia, Terra Labs, Wylie Labs, etc. For example, Xantrex could
hire
two independent companies to test their newly released XR2500 and post the
unedited results on the web to dispel rumors. The same goes for AES, Vanner,
SMA, Heart, etc. Independent testing costs money, but the results can be a
great
marketing tool that has a greater impact full page color ads of clouds and
mountains and suns and children.

Bill Brooks wrote:

> Wrenches,
>
> This is a very interesting thread, but I think there is a better way to
deal
> with this very large problem. My strong feeling is that we need
independent
> standards for performance and qualifications of inverters. This group of
> standards needs to cover many issues. From a performance point of view,
> there is currently no standard for how to perform efficiency tests on
> inverters or how to test the effectiveness of maximum power point tracking
> on the inverter.
>
> Incidentally, I have mentioned briefly in the past about a project we are
> getting ready to start with the California Energy Commission. It will be
the
> first step in establishing consumer guidelines for products and systems in
> the PV world. The idea is to use a format similar to Consumer Reports to
> rate PV systems. The only way this is going to be successful is if the
> dealers, installers, and manufacturers embrace the process and allow it to
> provide the benefit I think we all know it could provide.
>
> Right now we are playing a game of "things that suck" and "things that
> work", but I think this fundamentally misses the point. There needs to be
> objective benchmark against which systems and inverters are rated so that
> more of an apples-to-apples comparison can be made. The PV industry is
> running to recently introduced products far too quickly without enough
> information to truly make a good decision. Expecting everyone to do their
> own testing is silly and will keep our industry in the dark ages.
>
> All products today have aspects of their performance that could be
improved.
> However, when one product clearly outperforms another we latch onto it and
> don't focus on how to improve all the competing products. We settle for
> non-optimal performance because we have never seen excellent performance.
>
> With the support of all the PV industry we hope to make a difference by
> setting up some of these benchmarks that will serve the PV world for
decades
> to come. Wish us luck and we will be calling on the Wrenches for feedback
to
> make this process as effective as it can be.
>
> Bill.
>
> Bill Brooks
> Endecon Engineering
>
> Office:
> 873 Kells Circle
> Vacaville, CA 95688
> 707-332-0761 (Voice)
> 707-451-7739 (Fax)
> billb at endecon.com (email)
>
> Head Office:
> 347 Norris Court
> San Ramon, CA 94583
> 925-552-1330 (Voice)
> 925-552-1333 (Fax)
> www.endecon.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jay peltz [mailto:jay at asis.com]
> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 7:42 AM
> To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
> Subject: Re: How would you handle this situation? [RE-wrenches]
>
> Joel,
>
> One comment.  Here on this site, I would prefer that you mention what
> equipment.  Its how I keep up as to whats hot and whats not.
>
> thanks,
>
> jay
>
> peltz power
>
> Joel Davidson wrote:
>
> > One year ago, a customer bought 2 line-tie inverters. The customer is a
> > knowledgeable engineer and was unhappy with the inverters' performance
> > so he got a different brand inverter to compare performance. The other
> > brand performs much better. The customer and I are convinced that the 2
> > inverters he bought have design flaws and can not perform to spec. The
> > customer wants to return the inverters for a full refund. How would you
> > handle this situation?
> >
> Matt Lafferty wrote:
>
> > Joel / Wrenches:
> >
> > First of all, Joel, you are on the right track in providing "after the
> sale"
> > service.  This mirrors the last 1-1/2 + years we have spent dealing with
a
> > similar issue.  We aren't done with it yet.  May go on for a very long
> time,
> > in fact.  Be glad you only have the one Customer.  We have about 50, not
> to
> > mention the ones we own.
> >
> > I personally believe in maintaining integrity in backing up our
projects,
> > even when the issue isn't related to something we "did wrong".  The
> goodwill
> > generated is priceless, even when the Customers are screaming with
venom!
> >
> > As far as returning the inverters, I believe the manufacturer should
pick
> up
> > the tab &, as you suggest, do the testing.  A full credit to the
> > distributors is in order if the testing proves the inverters cannot
> perform
> > as advertised.
> >
> > Regarding "peak power":  This is the tree manufacturers hide behind.
Some
> > just hide behind it more than others.  We all know that PV generates in
> > "real time" according to all the variables existing at that time.  In a
> lab,
> > at STC or other favorable conditions, the inverter may produce the 2500
> > Watts as advertised.  There has to be a "Standard Test Condition" for
> rating
> > purposes or else there would be no way to benchmark performance and
> ratings.
> > If, under their tests, the results honestly show the inverter delivers
and
> > won't honor the refund request, then you have another thing to think
> about.
> > How to satisfy your customer, without bankrupting yourself, if he can be
> > satisfied at this point.
> >
> > The best I can offer at this moment is this:  Consider this experience
in
> > its entirety in the future.  What inverter are you going to select or,
> just
> > as importantly, NOT select for this type of application in the future?
> (Of
> > course we are all dying to know!!! ;-) )  And, Don't Quit on Commitment
to
> > Integrity!
> >
> > -Matt Lafferty
> > pvpro at attbi.com
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Joel Davidson"
> > Subject: Re: How would you handle this situation? [RE-wrenches]
> >
> > > 1) The customer chose the inverters and I agreed with his choice.
> > > 2) The customer bought the 2nd inverter to expand his PV system. I
> bought
> > the
> > > 2nd inverter from another distributor because the 1st distributor
could
> > not give
> > > a delivery date and the 2nd distributor had an inverter in stock.
> > > 3) Yesterday, both distributors contacted the manufacturer and we
await
> a
> > > response.
> > >
> > > Back to the original question, but this time put yourself in this
> > customer's
> > > place.
> > >
> > > You buy an inverter that is specified to deliver 2500 watts. The
> inverter
> > never
> > > delivers over 2300 watts of power and has other problems that
adversely
> > affect
> > > energy production. You visit another site with the same inverter and
see
> > the
> > > same under-performance and hear about the same other problems. You
> > substitute
> > > another brand 2500 watt inverter and the 2nd inverter delivers 2500
> watts.
> > You
> > > re-test the 1st inverter with 32 each 120 watt PV modules, but it
still
> > does not
> > > deliver over 2300 watts. You conclude that the inverter can not
perform
> as
> > > specified. The inverter is under warranty so you call the
manufacturer.
> > "They
> > > said they changed the spec and hadn't even publish or put it online
> > yet...when I
> > > mentioned that my unit would never run over 2300 watts (this is when I
> > purposely
> > > feed 32 panels into it to prove the unit wasn't running at spec) they
> > claimed
> > > 2500 was "peak" power what ever that means" (customer's exact words).
> > >
> > > If I were the manufacturer, this is how I would resolve this
situation.
> > Send the
> > > customer return shipping cartons, pay for the shipping and test the
> > inverters.
> > > If the inverters produce 2500 watts, return the inverters to the
> customer
> > with
> > > the test results. Charge the expense for 2-way shipping and testing to
> > customer
> > > service. If the inverters do not produce 2500 watts, first credit the
> > > distributors who will credit the retailer so the retailer can refund
the
> > > customer's money. Next, change the inverter specifications.
> > >
> > > What do you all think?
>
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