Proposed Changes to C.E.C. rebates in California [RE-wrenches]

Mon May 14 09:35:39 PDT 2001

Bill Brooks and others have examined and tested California buydown rebate PV
systems. Bill has an excellent understanding of the poor performance problems
and also has some good solutions. Bill's knowledge should be edited into a
revised edition of the Consumer's Guide to Buying a PV System. The CEC has the
money and the desire to pay someone to get better information to the public.
What must be done to revise the Guide?

John Berdner wrote:

> David:
>
> I agree with your points and would like to add a couple more.
>
> If we have high rebate levels and bad installs or under performing systems
> then the danger of  intervention by uneducated bureaucrats is increased.
> If enough consumers get upset then we run the risk of loosing the rebates
> that make PV competitive with the other heavily subsidized energy sources.
>
> I think most people on this list would agree that "in general" PV systems do
> not perform at the "nameplate" rating.
> What I think is needed is a fair set of test conditions that are
> representative of real world performance.
> It does not have to be exact but plus or minus 10% should be reasonable.
>
> Today, we don't have any valid performance Standards for PV.
> In fairness it really is a fairly difficult problem.
> We, as an industry, have an opportunity to help define these Standards.
> Without performance Standards, equipment manufacturers and installers who
> give customers accurate information are unfairly penalized when compared
> against those who exaggerate.
>
> When this happens I think it comes down to the consumer asking the question:
> "How do I know who is telling the truth".
> With independent Standards the people who do a good job have a third party
> authority to back them up.
>
> Let's all get together and support Sandia, NREL, or ??? to develop these
> Standards.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> John Berdner
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Blittersdorf [mailto:davidb at nrgsystems.com]
> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 7:51 AM
> To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
> Subject: RE: Proposed Changes to C.E.C. rebates in California
> [RE-wrenches]
>
> Folks,
>
> Be very careful what you wish for. If you want a city, state or federal
> inspection, you will probably not like alot of what becomes required and
> then
> everyone loses.
>
> Putting up with some "bad" installs IMO is better that over regulation by
> bureaucrats. Once a bureaucrat regulates you, the regulations are
> continuously ADDED and usually never deleted. Do NOT run to the CEC and
> ask for regulation - you may regret the final result if you do not help
> define
> the standards.
>
> Alot of what I hear from solar dealers is the threat of competing with
> others.
> They are afraid of losing sales in a rapidly growing market. Sorry, trying
> to
> erection market barriers to the very technologies you promote is counter
> productive. Work with your industry groups on voluntary standards and
> market that you follow them.
>
> These should be exciting times for renewables and your job is to keep up
> with the growth. If you can not or will not, then others will fill the void.
>
> David Blittersdorf
>
> On 13 May 01, at 19:42, Jeffrey Wolfe, Global Resources wrote:
> > I fully agree with the idea of independent verification of manufacturer's
> > performance / output claims. Many industries (fans, air conditioners,
> > generators, etc.) have independent industry associations (although funded
> > by their industry) that set guidelines and standards. AWEA has way better
> > standards that any PV group does. Partly (maybe mainly) this is because
> the wind
> > industry is not fragmented with a million different industry groups, and
> wind
> > pretty much always involves putting a spinning thing in the air. "Solar"
> is so
> > diverse, that the plethora of solar groups out their do not work together,
> have
> > no common goals, do not agree on standards, etc.
> >
> > We need a group that we can all through our support behind that will focus
> on
> > issues near and dear to us. Reliability and performance testing of PV and,
> I
> > would add, solar thermal. (SRCC fills *part* of the solar thermal). The
> > "wrenches" can't do this. We're all independent entrepreneur types who
> like to
> > fiddle with stuff. We need more office types to handle the testing and
> standards
> > writing. (Standards writing is truly like seeing death, so far as the
> excitement
> > level). MAybe there are some within us who could do this, but it should
> not be
> > us as the group.
> >
> > I do caution though, that we need to make sure our cries for standards,
> > testing, etc., are not met with "Great idea, let's suspend all the
> > installations until we get them in place" and suddenly we're all without
> > incentives (those of us who want them. I assume the rest turn them down.)
> > Don't think this is too far fetched. There are organizations that would
> > like to see our industry short circuited. Just as the CATO institute is
> now
> > worried about birds in wind mills, purely as a blocking tactic, there are
> others
> > who could come out strongly for standards for the same reason. (Like
> utilities
> > saying let's hold on net metering until these performance standards are in
> > place. I KNOW this is different, but that doesn't mean it doesn't get
> spun.)
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> > Jeffery D. Wolfe, P.E.
> > Global Resource Options, LLP
> > A Woman-Owned Vermont Limited Liability Partnership
> > 4 Kibling Hill Road
> > P.O. Box 51
> > Strafford, VT 05072
> > 802/765-4632
> > 802/765-9983 (Fax)
> > global at sover.net
> > http://www.globalresourceoptions.com
> >
> >
> > ----------
> > From:         jberdner at sma-america.com[SMTP:jberdner at sma-america.com]
> > Reply To:     RE-wrenches at topica.com
> > Sent:         Sunday, May 13, 2001 7:08 PM
> > To:   RE-wrenches at topica.com
> > Subject:      RE: Proposed Changes to C.E.C. rebates in California
> >  [RE-wrenches]
> >
> > Bill:
> >
> > Thank you for hitting the nail on the head!
> >
> > As you know, the existing California rebate program is simply a honor
> > system
> > where the manufactures supply performance data without any third party
> > validation.
> > I too am very concerned that we are setting ourselves up for failure by
> > developing a rebate system based on manufacturers ratings rather than
> > in-field performance.
> >
> > IMHO this is a recipe for disaster which sends the wrong message to
> > industry.
> > Without  defined test protocols everyone is free to make up any kind of
> > tests they like.
> > This approach makes it impossible for consumers to make valid comparisons
> > between competing products.
> > It also discourages manufacturers for improving product quality and
> > performance since it is nearly impossible to make valid comparisons.
> >
> > I have brought these issues up with Sandy Miller at the CEC and he is
> > willing to add a requirement for third party performance certification as
> > soon one is available.
> > The sad fact is that ,today in the US there are no procedures in place and
> > no testing agency, who can do this for PV systems.
> >
> > I encourage all of the Wrenches out there to express your concerns over
> the lack
> > of any third party certification procedure. Sandia has some money set
> aside to
> > do this but letter of support / concern would probably accelerate the
> process.
> > Sandia has to justify there budget priorities to DOE and letters of
> industry
> > support goes a long way to help them do that.
> >
> > Bill, Do you know who would be the best person at Sandia, NREL, or DOE to
> > voice our constructive concerns ?
> >
> > If you have any questions or I can be of any further assistance please do
> > not hesitate to contact me.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > John Berdner
> >
> > SMA-America, Inc.
> > 20830 Red Dog Road
> > Grass Valley, CA  95945
> > Tel: 530.273.4895
> > Fax: 530.274.7271
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Bill Brooks [mailto:billbrooks7 at earthlink.net]
> > Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 5:05 PM
> > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
> > Subject: RE: Proposed Changes to C.E.C. rebates in California
> > [RE-wrenches]
> >
> >
> > Joel,
> >
> > The problem is not new people flooding the market, but that we have no way
> > of qualifying the people currently in the market, or new people. As
> > concerned as the most conscientious installer might be about a
> competitor's
> > screw-up, they don't have the time or a reasonable mechanism to lodge a
> > complaint.
> >
> > Bad stuff will always happen, the issue is what means is there to clean it
> > up after it happens.
> >
> > The California Buydown program, like many other programs, is a module and
> > inverter installation incentive--not a system incentive or a performance
> > incentive. Not that this is the end of the world, but it suggests that the
> > program needs some additional safeguards to keep people from screwing up
> > either knowingly or unknowingly.
> >
> > 1.) I agree that bad design is due to the manufacturing industry not
> taking this
> > market seriously (it was "what market" until 5 months ago). Now that we
> have a
> > market, Siemens, Astropower, and BP all have pre-engineered packages.
> Others are
> > developing similar packages, but there are still an awful lot of folks out
> their
> > that want to put together their own systems because they think they can
> "save
> > money". Most of the time they "save money" because they leave some
> essential
> > stuff out.
> >
> > 2.) Bad installations come from lack of training. There is no one
> > installation problem that is more prevalent than another accept for
> perhaps lack
> > of good checklists to keep people installers from making dumb mistakes.
> When you
> > have a defined system product, it is very easy to train installers on how
> to put
> > that product in. My biggest frustration in training is having to deal with
> PV
> > generically. It is much easier to train on specific products.
> >
> > 3.) Equipment problems. Our biggest problem is that there is a lack of
> > third
> > party review of systems and equipment. UL has brought us a long way on
> > equipment listing, but this does not address performance or reliability
> > directly. Certainly, a listed device generally will be more reliable, but
> > that is not the focus of the testing. Until we have third party evaluation
> > of systems and products, we will be relying on disappointed customers to
> > complete our review process. In a $100,000,000 program like we have now in
> > California--that is unacceptable.
> >
> > Bill.
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Joel Davidson [mailto:joeldavidson at earthlink.net]
> > > Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 11:04 AM
> > > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
> > > Subject: Re: Proposed Changes to C.E.C. rebates in California
> > > [RE-wrenches]
> > >
> > >
> > > Of course, we are concerned about quality and sleeze bags. Our
> > > concern is a
> > > continuing thread in almost all conversations among PV
> > > professionals. One reason
> > > solar thermal got out of hand is poor policing. I believe that when a
> > > responsible person sees bad design, installation, equipment,
> > > business practices,
> > > then it is his or her responsibility to do something to improve
> > > the situation.
> > > That's why I always try to convert general grumblings into specifics. So
> > > specifically,
> > > 1. Bad design is often the result of module and inverter manufacturers
> > who
> > > refuse to take responsibility and provide good designs for their
> > > products. Not
> > > all manufacturers are guilty. For example, Siemens recently designed
> > their
> > > Earthsafe system.
> > > 2. Installations will improve when installers collaborate. Some people
> > may
> > > believe that installation problems are endemic and seek blanket
> > > solutions. I do
> > > not like one-size-fits-all so-called solutions. I prefer to deal
> > > with problems
> > > on a case by case basis. Bad installations by licensed or
> > > unlicensed contractors
> > > that are either bootlegged or permitted, can be indentified and
> > > dealt with in
> > > various ways.
> > > 3. If anyone knows of any equipment with real problems, please share
> this
> > > information. 4. I welcome the new people flooding the industry.
> Evolution
> > > works.
> > >
> > > Bill Brooks wrote:
> > >
> > > > Joel and the rest of the wrench world,
> > > >
> > > > You are just one guy, and I have to side with Jerry. Our
> > > industry is poised
> > > > to do an exact repeat of the solar thermal nightmare of the
> > > early 1980's.
> > > > Our system designs are poor, our installations are weak, and
> > > our equipment
> > > > has some real problems. All this, and hundreds of inexperienced
> > > people are
> > > > flooding our industry. What about this doesn't concern you.
> > > >
> > > > It is time to get our heads out of the sand and realize that
> > > our opportunity
> > > > of a lifetime could turn into our greatest curse. I want to
> > > hear from others
> > > > about how they feel about this situation.
> > > >
> > > > Bill.
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Joel Davidson [mailto:joeldavidson at earthlink.net]
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 8:56 PM
> > > > > To: RE-wrenches at topica.com
> > > > > Subject: Re: Proposed Changes to C.E.C. rebates in California
> > > > > [RE-wrenches]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Jerry,
> > > > > 1. Most PV industry professionals in California participate in the
> PV
> > > > > Alliance meetings and support a $5/W rebate. 2. Petitioning the PV
> > > > > industry is on a par to herding cats. 3. CEC funding for training is
> never
> > > > > easy to get and is never
> > > enough but
> > > > > is occasionally available.
> > > > > 4. The CEC tried to require kWh meters on buydown rebate
> > > systems, but it
> > > > > was not approved. (I am against any new rules that add to
> > > system costs,
> > > > > but I'm just one guy.)
> > > > > 5. April 11, 2001 the governor signed into law net metering
> > > for commercial
> > > > > systems 30 kW to 1 MW and an end to standby charges.
> > > > > ...and the list goes on. The more SCE and PG&E cry, the more the
> > > > > legislature listens to the PV industry.
> > > > > Good day sunshine!
> > > > >
> > > > > Jerry Caldwell wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Perhaps we could start a petition that would be signed
> > > > > > by pv industry professionals and addressed to the CEC
> > > > > > asking them to reconsider jacking the rebate up to
> > > > > > $4.50 including our list of reasons.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > They could better spend the money on training, system
> > > > > > perfomance verification through metering, or even
> > > > > > lobbying the state legislature to create an electric
> > > > > > feed law for commercial scale systems with more
> > > > > > incentive than plain old net metering.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jerry Caldwell
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- "Michael Welch, Home Power"
> > > > > > <michael.welch at homepower.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > Travis Creswell, Ozark Solar wrote at 12:35 PM
> > > > > > > 05/10/2001 -0500:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Bill's suggestion of going to CA is not to bad
> > > > > > > although.  I'm booked up
> > > > > > > >through June.  Anybody need help in July?  "Have
> > > > > > > tools, will travel".
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The next thing that is going to happen is that we
> > > > > > > are going to run out of PV modules. Some folks in CA
> > > > > > > will be paying over 20 cents per KWH for grid power,
> > > > > > > and with the new rebates (if), it comes very close
> > > > > > > to making economic sense to install PV or wind.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Who is going to build all these new "CA Buy Down
> > > > > > > Program" approved modules? Manufacturers are already
> > > > > > > reporting significant delays in shipping due to
> > > > > > > demand. I imagine that module prices have already
> > > > > > > increased somewhat as a result.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Think about what will happen to national &
> > > > > > > international module prices once the CA program gets
> > > > > > > into full swing. I seriously doubt if manufacturers
> > > > > > > could keep up with CA demand for household PV alone,
> > > > > > > let alone everything else. I heard David Katz remark
> > > > > > > that at current production rates, it would take 50
> > > > > > > years of manufacturing using every international PV
> > > > > > > manufacturing facility to meet CA's needs via PV.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Michael Welch
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ------------------------
> > > > > > > "Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it
> > > > > > > stirred up, you get a lot of scum on top."
> > > > > > >                       Edward Abbey
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Michael Welch, michael.welch at homepower.com
> > > > > > > www.homepower.com
> > > > > > >      Managing Editor, Home Power magazine
> > > > > > >      Office Coordinator, Redwood Alliance
> > > > > > >      (Not HP mag numbers) 707-822-7884 fax:
> > > > > > > 707-822-3481
> > > > > > >
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> David Blittersdorf
> NRG Systems, Inc.
> 110 Commerce Street
> Hinesburg, VT 05461 USA
> Tel: 802-482-2255
> Fax: 802-482-2272
> email: davidb at nrgsystems.com
> Web:http://www.nrgsystems.com
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