Fw: Battery Bussing [RE-wrenches]

Mon Sep 10 18:06:56 PDT 2001

I am very apt to be wrong, but I thought we couldn't use bus bars and remain
code legal anymore or is that just on batteries?

Bob

RE. Ellison
Supplier of;
Diesel Generators &
Alternative Energy Systems & Supplies
34642 Countryman Road
Theresa, NY. USA
                              13691-2076

-----Original Message-----
From:	jay peltz [mailto:jay at asis.com]
Sent:	Monday, September 10, 2001 4:43 PM
To:	RE-wrenches at topica.com
Subject:	Re: Fw: Battery Bussing [RE-wrenches]

Wow checking your mail while on vacation!!

Thanks for the update, couldn't tell the cable lengths from the photo.
Looks
good, just for grins what would john wiles say?

jay

Tom Elliot wrote:

> Jay,
>
> When I had the main buss connects made up I had them use 1/0 cable, which
> was overkill but smaller than I had on the previous bank.  I am using 48"
> connections from each series pair to the main buss with no problems at
all.
> I could most likely have used #1 with no problems.  (I don't have the
specs
> with me, I'm on vacation).
>
> With 12 series pairs the system output/input is spread evenly across the
12
> pairs.  Even at max draw on a 4024 that doesn't amount to much per series
> pair.  All the pairs are connected to the main buss with the same length
> cables so that they all "look" the same to the load.
>
> Tom
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "jay peltz" <jay at asis.com>
> To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 7:32 AM
> Subject: Re: Fw: Battery Bussing [RE-wrenches]
>
> > Hi Joel, and Tom,
> >
> > My question is about wire lengths.  In the plumbing world, to truly
> parallel
> > something, the lengths of pipe,fittings etc must be the same length.
> Seems to me
> > that the shorter wires will pull more power.  Yes I realize that we are
> talking
> > really small differences here, but it is going to take the path of least
> resistance.
> >
> > What say you?
> >
> > jay
> >
> > peltz power
> >
> > Joel Davidson wrote:
> >
> > > Tom,
> > > Thank you very much for the pictures and story on your web page. Using
a
> common
> > > bus makes a lot of sense. I wish I had more time and money to do
> research and
> > > testing. It would be good to put ammeters on the series and parallel
> cables to
> > > confirm lower current coming from inner batteries. Perhaps your
battery
> supplier
> > > has some test data.
> > > Best regards,
> > > Joel Davidson
> > >
> > > Tom Elliot wrote:
> > >
> > > > Allan,
> > > >
> > > > I've been following this thread with some interest as I've just gone
> through
> > > > my own changeover due to (what I consider) premature cell failure in
> an L-16
> > > > in my original bank.  I've done a write-up on my web page (the
> write-up is
> > > > at http://www.wagonmaker.com/newbatt.html ).
> > > >
> > > > As I say on the webpage, the battery people I deal with who do large
> telco
> > > > installation literally cringed when I said I had a series/parallel
> > > > installation.  The cell in my system that failed first was the one
> closest
> > > > to the positive inverter takeoff.  I didn't have cross-connection on
> the
> > > > bank, I took the power from one end (I know not the best) but they
> told me
> > > > it only made a little difference to take power from opposite ends of
> the
> > > > bank.
> > > >
> > > > According to what I was told, virtually *any* paralleling of
batteries
> is a
> > > > bad idea.  The center strings add voltage but not much current to
the
> > > > inverter draw which means that the outside series strings take more
of
> a hit
> > > > than the center strings.  (I'm getting clarification and more
> technical
> > > > explanation of this from them but it may take time).
> > > >
> > > > Anyway, when I saw the "battery bussing" subject line I thought
folks
> would
> > > > be talking about the way I've installed my "new" (to me) bank of
AGMs.
> All
> > > > my series strings (pairs, each is 12 volt) have their own connection
> to a
> > > > main set of buss bars so that each series strings contributes
equally
> and is
> > > > charged equally.  This makes for more cable but an ultimately easier
> to
> > > > maintain installation.  It also means none of that rotating
batteries
> in a
> > > > bank stuff.  I have a friend who does that also and it seems like a
> > > > hellacious waste of time.
> > > >
> > > > Another great thing about using a main buss bar setup is that you
have
> no
> > > > limits on the number of series strings you can use and it makes it
> easier to
> > > > use more, smaller, batteries in large systems.  If you get a chance
> check
> > > > out a large telco installation and see how they do it.  They are
often
> > > > connecting over 100 batteries to main busses.
> > > >
> > > > My original set of L-16s failed (at least one cell did) after only 7
> years
> > > > of use and an excellent maintenance and charge regime.  I expected a
> lot
> > > > more out of them and if I had done it this way originally they'd
still
> be
> > > > chugging along just fine.
> > > >
> > > > Telco installations change out their banks much more frequently than
> we in
> > > > the industry do and they were surprised at my 7 year battery life
but
> in our
> > > > kind of installations and usage patterns longer life should be a bit
> issue
> > > > and I think eliminating parallel strings would extend battery bank
> life.
> > > >
> > > > Tom Elliot
> > > > Guffey Energy Works
> > > > http://www.wagonmaker.com
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Allan Sindelar" <allan at positiveenergysolar.com>
> > > > To: <RE-wrenches at topica.com>
> > > > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 2:22 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: Fw: Battery Bussing [RE-wrenches]
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Re this part of my earlier post on battery interconnects:
> > > > > > The point of diagonal tapping is to minimize
> > > > > > the effect of cumulative interconnect and terminal resistance
from
> > > > causing
> > > > > > one string to charge and discharge "sooner" than the others; you
> could
> > > > > also
> > > > > > say "more" or "less" than the other strings. The additional
> resistance
> > > > is
> > > > > > very slight with clean connections, but as the amperage can be
> very
> > > > high,
> > > > > > the resultant voltage drop from parallel string to parallel
string
> can
> > > > be
> > > > > > significant. A consistent variation in voltage over time leads
to
> > > > > > incremental premature failure of some strings--and I admit I'm
not
> sure
> > > > if
> > > > > > it's the harder-working strings or the less-cycled strings that
> would
> > > > fail
> > > > > > first.
> > > > > Can anyone answer my question? How will an unevenly-matched
battery
> bank
> > > > > deteriorate? Which cells will fail first, and why?
> > > > > Thank you...
> > > > > Allan at Pos E
> > > > >
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